How to apply Fixed gear in the Red

Gaston? High Step? Drop Knee? Talk in here.

How to use Perma-draws in the Red

None
9
17%
Anchors only
1
2%
Anchors and midway point to facilitate cleaning steep routes
13
24%
Anchors, midway points, and hard clips
3
6%
Mixed approach depending on overhang angle
24
44%
Entire routes
4
7%
 
Total votes: 54

aburgoon
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Re: How to apply Fixed gear in the Red

Post by aburgoon » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:37 pm

Ray,

Is there anyway we could post this to the front page of the site?

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Re: How to apply Fixed gear in the Red

Post by lena_chita » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:52 pm

THB wrote:So far it seems apparent. As of right now 63% of the people that voted in the other thread feel that stripping the draws from the lode was a BAD idea. That's a clear majority. And it seems so far on this thread that the majority (70% out of only 10 voters so far), feels that we need to equip routes in with perma-draws based on a mixed approach depending on the steepness of the route...

But, where do we draw the line? Thanks for posting this thread aburgoon, it's about time we stop all the back-and-forth bickering, and put that energy toward a solution. Is the meeting still on for 8pm at Miguel's tomorrow (saturday) night? If so, can I volunteer myself to be the moderator of the meeting. I really don't want to see it turn into a pissing match, i'd like to see the community come back together and make a decision that we can all agree on with this topic. hopefully by the end of the night we'll all be holding hands and singing kumbayah (sp?)...
The line(s) have been drawn by the everyday actions of the entire climber population at the Red-- somewhere around 5.12, and somewhere around the steepness level of the Undertow wall. The perma-draws were the next step, taken by a much smaller group of climbers, but project-draws-that-became-fixed-draws IS the result of the entire community.

Everyone who says, well, what if the Playground and the Volunteer walls were all fully fixed is forgetting that the majority of climbers, something like 70-80% of climbers coming to the Red, are NOT climbing 5.12s. They are climbing those 5.10s and 5.11s at Playground and Volunteer wall, and whatever other place you'd like to name, that have no fixed draws on them, and they, as a community, have collectively decided (not through any meeting, but through actions of every single climber who took his draws off at the end of the day) that they will not leave their draws.

It is a reality that "projecting" 5.10 just doesn't happen the way projecting 5.13 happens. There may be someone out there who had sent a specific 5.10 that was really calling their name after 50 tries, but statistically speaking this is very rare. Not because there aren't people for whom 5.10 is as hard as 5.14 is for other people, but because climbers for whom 5.10 IS that hard generally have a different attitude towards climbing; they are in general not so obsessed about sending and projecting as climbers who work on 5.14s, and they are more interested in getting on a bunch of different 5.10s, and are not that interested in getting on the same 5.10 route 50 times in a row.

And then, try to remember yourself when you were just starting to climb, and just bought the shiny new gear and spent a lot of money on it. You were just going to leave it hanging on a route for all to use? Not bloody likely!!! Those are all contributing factors to why there are no draws on 5.10s, and there aren't likely to be fixed draws on 5.10.

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Re: How to apply Fixed gear in the Red

Post by heacocis » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:33 pm

I agree with those who say it should be up to the route developer, and I suggest that moving forward we apply this to new routes. In my opinion being a route developer means much more than just putting some bolts in a piece of rock, it also means for example equipping the route properly. Equipping a route may include perma draws (assuming the route is on land where PDs are okay)- the decision whether or not to place them and if so then where. If a route is developed and subsequently FA'd with PDs, then they should stay. Conversely, if the route was developed and subsequently FA'd without PDs, then they should not be placed on the route in the future. This idea isn't about the developers becoming the police of PDs, its about style and ethics: if the developer deems the route doesn't need PDs and it is FA'd as such, then it doesn't need PDs.
I also recognize that standards have changed since most of the routes at the Lode were put up, so I am not suggesting that this idea be retroactive. What we should do with existing routes - what this whole topic is about - is still an open question. I am only suggesting that moving forward letting the developer decide on the use of PDs on a particular route seems to be a viable solution to this problem.
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Re: How to apply Fixed gear in the Red

Post by climb2core » Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:43 pm

Bump

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Re: How to apply Fixed gear in the Red

Post by aburgoon » Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:55 pm

Thanks climb2core.

Ray, could you paste this to the front page so it doesn't get lost bellow the other threads?

Andy

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Re: How to apply Fixed gear in the Red

Post by ray » Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:59 pm

No way dude this shit is BORING!

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Re: How to apply Fixed gear in the Red

Post by pigsteak » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:01 pm

ynp1 wrote:i think the bolter and/or FAest should make the call... they decide if a route needs bolts and where, why not decide if it needs PDs or not???
agreed 100%
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Re: How to apply Fixed gear in the Red

Post by pigsteak » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:06 pm

ray wrote:No way dude this shit is BORING!

seriously......I had to call up that Facebook dude and ask him for tips on how to bring back this site from mediocrity and blah-ness. Please cut me a royalty check, and kick Dustin in the nuts.

oh yeah, I just bolted a new slab today in PMRP.....dead vert. I would like steel draws on the anchors, mid height cleaning biner, and anchovies on my pie. I am going to dedicate this route to the new heroes/villians, and call is "das krue".
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.

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Re: How to apply Fixed gear in the Red

Post by aburgoon » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:27 pm

ray wrote:No way dude this shit is BORING!
True, but slightly more relevant to climbing in the Red than trading personal insults.

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Re: How to apply Fixed gear in the Red

Post by THB » Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:36 pm

aburgoon wrote:Remember that the people voting here do not represent the totality of climbers at the red, so we can't use this voting as a source of legitimacy for any group.
True, but do you have a better idea for getting a concensus? If we call a meeting and advertise the meeting, lots of people that climb in the red A LOT, will probably still not make the meeting so that their voice is heard.

Poll every person camping at Miguel's, and then send a rep out to every single sport crag in the rrg to poll everyone?

I'm just not sure of a better way to poll people to get a concensus? Ideas?? I'm all ears...

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Re: How to apply Fixed gear in the Red

Post by climb2core » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:09 pm

Representative poll of several hundred ought to do.

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Re: How to apply Fixed gear in the Red

Post by aburgoon » Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:47 pm

THB wrote:
aburgoon wrote:Remember that the people voting here do not represent the totality of climbers at the red, so we can't use this voting as a source of legitimacy for any group.
True, but do you have a better idea for getting a concensus? If we call a meeting and advertise the meeting, lots of people that climb in the red A LOT, will probably still not make the meeting so that their voice is heard.

Poll every person camping at Miguel's, and then send a rep out to every single sport crag in the rrg to poll everyone?

I'm just not sure of a better way to poll people to get a concensus? Ideas?? I'm all ears...
The amount of people responding here is a fraction of the total users- this can be used as a guide but not a mandate.

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Re: How to apply Fixed gear in the Red

Post by Rotarypwr345704 » Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:51 pm

aburgoon wrote:
ray wrote:No way dude this shit is BORING!
True, but slightly more relevant to climbing in the Red than trading personal insults.
Dude. STFU. We don't care about you, or your opinion. This thread if fucking useless, get used to it. Your poll is shortsighted at best. So shut up. Jesus fucking Christ.
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Re: How to apply Fixed gear in the Red

Post by jimmy » Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:23 am

...looks like someone forgot to take their happy pills last night.

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Re: How to apply Fixed gear in the Red

Post by aburgoon » Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:24 am

Rotarypwr345704 wrote:
aburgoon wrote:
ray wrote:No way dude this shit is BORING!
True, but slightly more relevant to climbing in the Red than trading personal insults.
Dude. STFU. We don't care about you, or your opinion. This thread if fucking useless, get used to it. Your poll is shortsighted at best. So shut up. Jesus fucking Christ.
Considering about 100 more people voted on the other thread, you may be right.

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