Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Gaston? High Step? Drop Knee? Talk in here.

How long do you typically work a project route for before you send?

1 week
5
29%
2 weeks
0
No votes
3 weeks
3
18%
4 weeks
2
12%
5 weeks
1
6%
Less than 2 months
4
24%
More than 2 months
2
12%
 
Total votes: 17

User avatar
Artsay
SCIN's
Posts: 3397
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2002 11:11 am
Location: Lexington, KY
Contact:

Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by Artsay » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:02 am

Since the "CREW" claims they will clean draws on routes that have been on too long (for a time period they have seemingly decided on), I'm interested in hearing how long folks work a project route for. Since a lot of us work for a living and only climb weekends (and some only 1 day a weekend), I broke the poll up by weeks since that's how long the draws will have to stay up for. Any tips on poll changes just holler...
Does he have a strange bear claw like appendage protruding from his neck? He kep petting it.

User avatar
tbwilsonky
Chuck
Posts: 868
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 5:38 pm
Location: Lexington
Contact:

Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by tbwilsonky » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:14 am

there should be a lottery at the start of each season to see who wins 'project passes'. if you are selected you will receive two (2) weeks of project draws to be placed on the route of your choice. during said time you may choose three (3) other individuals to project your route as any additional people in the que might hinder the efficacy of your attempts. when said time is up your pass goes back into the pool for a new selection. previous winners MAY REENTER the pool, but only if they have a signed affidavit from three (3) people (who CANNOT be a fellow 'projector') who will testify to their tenacity and commitment to excellence.

problem solved. you're welcome.
haunted.

the lurkist
In Crust We Trust
Posts: 2244
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 10:07 am

Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by the lurkist » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:49 am

How about no project draws. I don't want to climb on anyone else's gear. I would prefer to climb on my own draws. Why can't we put up and take down our draws each day? It is the leaving of draws and often the abandonment of draws that have created the hazard. Gear that has no ownership has no one to monitor it. I think this accepted practice of leaving draws has encouraged the belief that these left draws are "safe" and can be used without forethought to whether they could potentially be a hazard. I realize that you aren't suggesting you would be leaving draws ad infinitum or that your draws would be left with out oversight, but among younger less experienced climbers who, as many iterations of accidents have taught us, don't have the mentorship to teach them proper cliff etiquette and safety- mind sensibilities, they do adopt the belief and habit that hanging draws are as infallible as bolts. We know this isn't the case. I think, as a community that has to not encourage unsafe behavior, not having any fixed draws is the reasonable thing to do. You put them up and take them down the same day.
"It really is all good ! My thinking only occasionally calls it differently..."
Normie

rhunt
Suspiciously French
Posts: 3202
Joined: Thu May 29, 2003 8:02 am
Location: Cbus

Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by rhunt » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:51 am

For as long as it takes. It is up to ME not YOU to decide if the gear I am climbing on is safe! That is the whole problem with the PD debate. The people who put up the PD and the people who took them down are no different - you are both the "CREW" Both of you took the decision away from individual climbers the ability to discern for themselves what is safe and what is not. You both have created a very dangerous precedent.
As soon as people start getting hurt from clipping fix gear that they assume the "local climbing community - CREW" were responsible for taking care of, law suits will start to happen and land owners, included the RRGCC will be forced to close cliffs.
"Climbing is the spice, not the meal." ~ Lurkist

the lurkist
In Crust We Trust
Posts: 2244
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 10:07 am

Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by the lurkist » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:19 pm

rhunt wrote:For as long as it takes.
Sorry, Rob. Could you clarify what you mean by this. I think I understand your point that fixed gear is creating a bad precedent. Am I reading you right?
"It really is all good ! My thinking only occasionally calls it differently..."
Normie

User avatar
climb2core
Loser
Loser
Posts: 2224
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:04 pm

Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by climb2core » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:24 pm

3 Days.

Logic:
If you can't send your project of 3 days of climbing in a row, you will need a rest day. At the end of your 3rd day, clean your draws. Odds are, some one else will have put up new project draws when you get back and you can climb on their gear for a few days. This will ensure draws are changed out on a regular basis, minimize the wear and tear on your project set, and provide an opportunity to inspect your gear.

It also happens to be the length of a 3 day week end.

Also, PD's are here to stay in some format. We elect officials in our democratic system that are supposed to represent our best interests. I say we leave it up to the FA crew to determine how to handle them. They seem to have come to consensus on how to safely bolt, so why not how determine how to use PD's. To be part of the group you would have to have put up at least 10 routes and have been bolting for at least 5 years. I don't think asking every person who climbs in the Red is the best way to do it. It just doesn't seem like the best idea to give equal say to anyone that has ever step foot in the Red.

We could come up with a short list pretty easy who should be included...

Personally, I think the FA should determine if the route they bolted is eligible for PD's and then apply the steepness format to determine what type of set up it gets. The routes that are not eligible would then fall in the 3 day project draw rule.
Last edited by climb2core on Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
tbwilsonky
Chuck
Posts: 868
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 5:38 pm
Location: Lexington
Contact:

Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by tbwilsonky » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:33 pm

rhunt wrote:Both of you took the decision away from individual climbers the ability to discern for themselves what is safe and what is not.
...
haunted.

User avatar
Rotarypwr345704
I said I'd donate $100 to the RRGCC, and nobody posted in the MF thread after I said that
Posts: 393
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:27 pm

Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by Rotarypwr345704 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:39 pm

the lurkist wrote:How about no project draws. I don't want to climb on anyone else's gear. I would prefer to climb on my own draws. Why can't we put up and take down our draws each day? It is the leaving of draws and often the abandonment of draws that have created the hazard. Gear that has no ownership has no one to monitor it. I think this accepted practice of leaving draws has encouraged the belief that these left draws are "safe" and can be used without forethought to whether they could potentially be a hazard. I realize that you aren't suggesting you would be leaving draws ad infinitum or that your draws would be left with out oversight, but among younger less experienced climbers who, as many iterations of accidents have taught us, don't have the mentorship to teach them proper cliff etiquette and safety- mind sensibilities, they do adopt the belief and habit that hanging draws are as infallible as bolts. We know this isn't the case. I think, as a community that has to not encourage unsafe behavior, not having any fixed draws is the reasonable thing to do. You put them up and take them down the same day.
AGREED. My head is going to blow with all this bickering back and forth. Draws left should be considered abandoned.
I fell for the everyone-shut-up-and-ill-donate-money scheme. -Ray Ellington, guidebook gawd

My name is Sam Douglass and I love to pose for photo shoots holding on to a jug with only one hand (and no feet!) with my best friend Ian.

EricDorsey
Gumby
Gumby
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:52 pm

Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by EricDorsey » Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:09 pm

Sweet, so free for all on any hanging draws in the red then? I could use a rack of 200 sharp quickdraws...

User avatar
Rotarypwr345704
I said I'd donate $100 to the RRGCC, and nobody posted in the MF thread after I said that
Posts: 393
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:27 pm

Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by Rotarypwr345704 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:20 pm

EricDorsey wrote:Sweet, so free for all on any hanging draws in the red then? I could use a rack of 200 sharp quickdraws...
Thank you for being a smartass and then disproving your own point all at the same time! If they're all sharp, why would you want them on the wall? So do I think hanging draws should be stripped? Well since you're not very bright and need things explained: Yes.
I fell for the everyone-shut-up-and-ill-donate-money scheme. -Ray Ellington, guidebook gawd

My name is Sam Douglass and I love to pose for photo shoots holding on to a jug with only one hand (and no feet!) with my best friend Ian.

EricDorsey
Gumby
Gumby
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:52 pm

Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by EricDorsey » Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:23 pm

Thank you for being so serious :) You must be a joy to climb with.

User avatar
Rotarypwr345704
I said I'd donate $100 to the RRGCC, and nobody posted in the MF thread after I said that
Posts: 393
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:27 pm

Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by Rotarypwr345704 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:26 pm

Maybe you didn't get the memo. No one on this Forum climbs. We all just pretend we do.
I fell for the everyone-shut-up-and-ill-donate-money scheme. -Ray Ellington, guidebook gawd

My name is Sam Douglass and I love to pose for photo shoots holding on to a jug with only one hand (and no feet!) with my best friend Ian.

cramacam
Gumby
Gumby
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:40 pm
Location: Lexington, KY

Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by cramacam » Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:26 pm

Regardless of convenience and awesomeness/non-awesomeness of pre-hung draws... Would it not be easiest to say that no draws should be left overnight? Sure would make policing easier for the community.

rhunt
Suspiciously French
Posts: 3202
Joined: Thu May 29, 2003 8:02 am
Location: Cbus

Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by rhunt » Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:32 pm

If i want to hang my draws on a project, I can keep them there for as long as it takes to send the route. If in that time another climber decides any one of my draws are dangerously worn, they should change it out without any regard for my property. Isn't that they way it always was Hugh? I can remember changing out draws on resurrection at the undertow wall (one of the only routes that was Fixed on that wall back then..and for reasons I never knew), because they were badly worn - I was looking out for me not the whole community.
I think there is a BIG difference between project draws and permanent draws. Project draws are hung by a particular climber for his or her convenience at the risk of others using them, taking them down or even stealing them. Perma draws are hung on a route that deems them necessary ...ie cave route and the like.

And yet I rarely climb anymore but I will be down in two weeks for the FIG 12hr adventure race - you'll probably see us riding by in the PMRP.
"Climbing is the spice, not the meal." ~ Lurkist

User avatar
bcombs
Generic Jerry
Posts: 2048
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 12:20 pm
Location: Cincy

Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by bcombs » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:52 pm

It seems that if the plan is to establish guidelines for how long personal gear can hang, we are setting ourselves up for more work than would have come from just keeping what is already hanging in good shape. I think that the only solution is no gear at all or only on a cleaning bolt and anchors. Bottom line on gear already hanging and the concern that the individual climbers "choice" to use them or not creates a potenitial security concern, let's just all adopt a rule that we hang our own on the bolts anyway and after climbing remove the hanging gear and our own. Leave the hanging gear at the base. Bolts will happily take two (or bait and switch on your way up).

Now, with all that in place, the common scnenario is going to be dude-brah hangs his draws on Snooker and then goes down to let his brochacho warm up on Buff. Meanwhile someone else comes along from the Undertow wall trail and removes his draws from Snooker while hanging their own and leaves them at the base. Brocephus comes back and is all flared up like a banty rooster because someone took his perfectly good, sunbleached, half sharp Omega dirtbags down. Flexing occurs and the situation deteriorates into some lanky jackass falling off the ledge at the base and getting hurt.

I like PD's as much as the next guy / gal, but I don't see how we can set rules for the duration of people's projects. Any arbitrary number of days picked will result in pretty much what we have today, once it has been hanging too long someone always comes along and takes it down / replaces it.

Post Reply