Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Gaston? High Step? Drop Knee? Talk in here.

How long do you typically work a project route for before you send?

1 week
5
29%
2 weeks
0
No votes
3 weeks
3
18%
4 weeks
2
12%
5 weeks
1
6%
Less than 2 months
4
24%
More than 2 months
2
12%
 
Total votes: 17

the lurkist
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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by the lurkist » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:17 pm

I agree with you Rob. I think leaving your draws up on a route is your choice. I would like to see folks just hang them the day they came out and take them down the same day. That probably won't happen, so my personal practice will be to clean your draws and leave them on the anchor (not the base) so they won't get arbitrarily taken, and hang my own. This is maybe a step back to pre PD era, but if we can somehow communicate that this is a community standard to the visiting, young, uneducated climber, then we will have not re inforced bad habits of trusting fixed gear and encouraged personal responsibility of committing one's own gear to a route.
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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by rhunt » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:38 pm

I agree that your draws hung for the day is about really the most any climb needs. That's how it went for the 80% of the project climbing I did. You either sent your climb first thing hanging them and had that to spray about or you used the hanging the draws burn to brush holds and go over the moves one more time before the redpoint burn.

Hugh, can I ask you, do you think the undertow wall needed perma draws? How many times did you clean routes left of Chainsaw, was it really that difficult?

Again, it was a really bad idea from the start to go about fixing routes with PD because climbers were too stupid to know they were climbing on bad gear. I am not saying we should have stood by and watch the newbies possible get hurt BUT just like with the bad GriGri epidemic we could have taken a more hands off - educated the newbies approach. I think Zac said this in another thread and i will reiterate, the next step in this process of protecting people from themselves would be to put auto belays on all climbs because people just got too stupid to belay properly.
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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by Green3 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:25 pm

bcombs wrote:Now, with all that in place, the common scnenario is going to be dude-brah hangs his draws on Snooker and then goes down to let his brochacho warm up on Buff. Meanwhile someone else comes along from the Undertow wall trail and removes his draws from Snooker while hanging their own and leaves them at the base. Brocephus comes back and is all flared up like a banty rooster because someone took his perfectly good, sunbleached, half sharp Omega dirtbags down. Flexing occurs and the situation deteriorates into some lanky jackass falling off the ledge at the base and getting hurt.
This theoretical anecdote is ridiculous. And if someone took my draws (which are neither sunbleached nor sharp) off a climb while I was gone from it for 35-40 minutes, while I'm sure I wouldn't push you off any ledges, I would be kinda pissed off and let you know about it.

Calling your antagonists "dudebrah" and all its variations doesn't make the "someone" in your story any more right.
Last edited by Green3 on Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by climb2core » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:32 pm

Green3 wrote:
bcombs wrote:Now, with all that in place, the common scnenario is going to be dude-brah hangs his draws on Snooker and then goes down to let his brochacho warm up on Buff. Meanwhile someone else comes along from the Undertow wall trail and removes his draws from Snooker while hanging their own and leaves them at the base. Brocephus comes back and is all flared up like a banty rooster because someone took his perfectly good, sunbleached, half sharp Omega dirtbags down. Flexing occurs and the situation deteriorates into some lanky jackass falling off the ledge at the base and getting hurt.
This theoretical anecdote is ridiculous. And if someone took my draws (which are neither sunbleached nor sharp) off a climb while I was gone from it for 35-40 minutes, while I'm sure I wouldn't push you off any ledges, I would be kinda pissed off and let you know about it.

Calling your antagonists "dudebrah" and all it's variations doesn't make the "someone" in your story any more right.

Agreed green3, if the standard becomes any gear seen on a route is fair game to be removed, it will create even more problems... Gear at the top, base, or taken as booty without a legitimate reason.


Well, I guess you could leave a rope on it... If that wouldnt be considered abandoned too...

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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by the lurkist » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:42 pm

No, the UTW doesn't need or require fixed gear. As Toy said, none of the routes at the Lode were created with the thought of fixed gear.
Yes, PD were placed to remove the hazard of sharp gear and hopefully prevent a disaster, but ( I said this then) that gear needs to monitored too, and we have realized an unintended consequence of installing PDs- that it encourages people to get in over their heads. The very thing we had hoped that PDs would avoid- a hazardous situation- has actually facilitated a bigger one- young climbers learning they don't have to take any responsibility for the integrity of gear. Bad idea.
The numbers speak for themselves. Friday before gear was stripped- a typical day at the UTW with 50 people overwhelming the routes. The Sunday and Monday after, 8 people.
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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by climb2core » Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:19 pm

the lurkist wrote:No, the UTW doesn't need or require fixed gear. As Toy said, none of the routes at the Lode were created with the thought of fixed gear.
Yes, PD were placed to remove the hazard of sharp gear and hopefully prevent a disaster, but ( I said this then) that gear needs to monitored too, and we have realized an unintended consequence of installing PDs- that it encourages people to get in over their heads. The very thing we had hoped that PDs would avoid- a hazardous situation- has actually facilitated a bigger one- young climbers learning they don't have to take any responsibility for the integrity of gear. Bad idea.
The numbers speak for themselves. Friday before gear was stripped- a typical day at the UTW with 50 people overwhelming the routes. The Sunday and Monday after, 8 people.
If your numbers are correct, that is great. It will be interesting to see how the trend continues. I may be wrong, but I find it hard to believe 84% of people wouldn't climb at the Undertow wall because there are no pre hung draws...

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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by Artsay » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:28 pm

Hugh - PDs are a result of the increase in popularity of climbing so removing will neither deter climbing from evolving or educate people. They are essentially a classic case of cause and effect.

I agree folks aren't educated enough in gear integrity, big problem. But I don't get how removing PDs will do this. If this is sincerly the concern of the "CREW" then why not promote education in climbing gyms, build a local Safe Climbing Committee of peer-elected representatives to address and deal with these issues, and/or start pulling data to base these assumptions and decisions from?

I will volunteer to fully map this type of data and provide trend analysis results to support that type of cause. Yep, the numbers speak for themselves so let's analyze them instead of make them up.
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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by tbwilsonky » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:32 pm

climb2core wrote:I may be wrong, but I find it hard to believe 84% of people wouldn't climb at the Undertow wall because there are no pre hung draws...
same here. i'd say the vast majority of people skipping the Undertow experience did so to avoid an awkward tutorial on the new (and let's face it... not-so-terribly-clear) rules. i mean, it would suck to drive all the way from Michigan just to have an angry dude with a Petzl cap on sideways go apeshit on you for pooping under Chainsaw...while you still have draws hanging on Tuna Town.

the obvious answer for most people would be to climb somewhere else where there is no line in the sand.
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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by the lurkist » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:57 pm

I think the "crew" has tried to articulate their reasons. Whatever motivated them, unilaterally taking them down has its own unintended consequence. It has really polarized the community and clearly become divisive. That is too bad. That said, I think if we had seen the future prior to putting them up we might have considered a more elegant solution- just do away with fixed gear with a few exceptions. Making this the standard influences climber's consideration of fixed gear- that it is fundamentally suspect and should not be trusted. I can't help but think of Ben and Laura and their tragedy. Whether blind trust of fixed gear fostered by a laissez-faire community acceptance of fixed gear played a role in their accident we will never know, but I know that we have all wondered why they didn't question the sun bleached tat. The Red is an incubator for young climbers. If there is something we can do in a mechanistic way to influence how climbers make their decisions, then I think we should do it.
As far as what the rules are, that is a good question. I think expected behavior needs to be more explicitly explained. People visiting don't necessarily have the empathy or outdoor sensibilities. The human waste is the most obvious problem. Maybe we need make clear the basic ground rules. As I said the last night at Miguels, non confrontational ground rules, etiquette, whatever, explicitly stated codifies the boundaries. -pack out your waste, leash your dog, leave no trash, be polite/ respectful, no fixed gear, etc... whatever we as a community decide on...
When there are large numbers of people, there is a stronger imperative for rules so that everyone knows what is expected.
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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by dustonian » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:19 pm

the lurkist wrote:No, the UTW doesn't need or require fixed gear. As Toy said, none of the routes at the Lode were created with the thought of fixed gear.
Yes, PD were placed to remove the hazard of sharp gear and hopefully prevent a disaster, but ( I said this then) that gear needs to monitored too, and we have realized an unintended consequence of installing PDs- that it encourages people to get in over their heads. The very thing we had hoped that PDs would avoid- a hazardous situation- has actually facilitated a bigger one- young climbers learning they don't have to take any responsibility for the integrity of gear. Bad idea.
The numbers speak for themselves. Friday before gear was stripped- a typical day at the UTW with 50 people overwhelming the routes. The Sunday and Monday after, 8 people.

You've gotta be kidding. Are you sure your statistical techniques are to snuff? You are hereby guilty of type I error, doc. There were only 8 people at the Lode because everyone wants to steer clear of a bunch of self-righteous demagogues.

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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by the lurkist » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:56 pm

Alright, you got me. I may be guilty of a type 1 error (the result we got is not infact due to the change we made, but due to randomness.) I don't know for sure, but my hypothesis is that people make crag decisions based on how facilitated the climbing is, i.e. that PD make it easy, low commitment, and lack of PDs/ having to climb a route and hang em is harder, thus people go elsewhere. Of course, you may be right, doc, and folks just wanted to avoid being vibed. We should test it.
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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by chosen1 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:00 pm

dustonian wrote:
the lurkist wrote:No, the UTW doesn't need or require fixed gear. As Toy said, none of the routes at the Lode were created with the thought of fixed gear.
Yes, PD were placed to remove the hazard of sharp gear and hopefully prevent a disaster, but ( I said this then) that gear needs to monitored too, and we have realized an unintended consequence of installing PDs- that it encourages people to get in over their heads. The very thing we had hoped that PDs would avoid- a hazardous situation- has actually facilitated a bigger one- young climbers learning they don't have to take any responsibility for the integrity of gear. Bad idea.
The numbers speak for themselves. Friday before gear was stripped- a typical day at the UTW with 50 people overwhelming the routes. The Sunday and Monday after, 8 people.

You've gotta be kidding. Are you sure your statistical techniques are to snuff? You are hereby guilty of type I error, doc. There were only 8 people at the Lode because everyone wants to steer clear of a bunch of self-righteous demagogues.
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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by dustonian » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:01 pm

the lurkist wrote:Alright, you got me. I may be guilty of a type 1 error (the result we got is not infact due to the change we made, but due to randomness.) I don't know for sure, but my hypothesis is that people make crag decisions based on how facilitated the climbing is, i.e. that PD make it easy, low commitment, and lack of PDs/ having to climb a route and hang em is harder, thus people go elsewhere. Of course, you may be right, doc, and folks just wanted to avoid being vibed. We should test it.
If you had walked by Solar Collector today you would laugh at your own ludicrous hypothesis... easily 35 people at the base of those 9 routes. Convenience has very little to do with it, unfortunately. But if crowds are actually what The Crew sought to dispel with their grand deed, they should move on to the Dark Side next for further challenging of the null hypothesis, god what a shitshow.

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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by the lurkist » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:04 pm

were those six routes all fixed?
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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by dustonian » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:06 pm

Of course not... just gumballs dogging to the top and cleaning their draws forever all day long. That said, I didn't climb there, you'd have to be nuts.

People make crag decisions based on an algorithm of quality and grades... except me, I make my decision based on which crag still has the most choss waiting to be knocked off.

Classic conversation between Rick and Lena today (after she got spooked on the airy 11+ Crown of Thorns):

L [with Russian accent]: "I am very scared of choss."

R: "I know what you mean, I am really scared of choices too!"
;)

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