Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Gaston? High Step? Drop Knee? Talk in here.

How long do you typically work a project route for before you send?

1 week
5
29%
2 weeks
0
No votes
3 weeks
3
18%
4 weeks
2
12%
5 weeks
1
6%
Less than 2 months
4
24%
More than 2 months
2
12%
 
Total votes: 17

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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by pigsteak » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:20 am

an interesting note...it was noted that it took more "time" at the Lode this weekend because of the cleaning of draws from routes, and people had to wait. but aren't there steel PD's on the anchors, so no transfer had to take place. and a mid height cleaning draw? wiht those, how long does it really take to clean the rest of one's draws? like 2-3 minutes?


the reason I ask, I was at an undisclosed cliff on sunday where the lines were 2-3 parties deep on most of the sport lines. not a single one had a single PD attached, and we all got along just fine. sure, it was bothersome to have to wait in line for a route, but I did not feel entitled to have steel PD's up for my comfort and so I could hit that last pitch of the day. why should the Lode be any different form the 90% of other packed cliffs right now where people have to be patient and just take a chill pill, or move on?

sometimes I think we sport climbers forget to slow down, merely enjoy the pitches we get in, and no always be so consumed by getting on the proj or the next hardest thing we can send. I know I am guilty at times.
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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by climb2core » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:47 am

Why the secrecy??? An undisclosed public crag...

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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by lena_chita » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:43 am

I can't really vote on the poll above. The longest I ever dedicated to "working" a route was 6 days, with ~1-3 attempts per day. But those 6 days have been spread over the course of couple years.

I can only come to the Red for a weekend, and it is usually every two weeks in the best-case scenario, so I do not leave my draws hanging as "project draws". I clean them at the end of the day, because there might be months before I visit the same route (because it depends on who I will be climbing with, and what their agenda is, too -- they have their priorities, projects, etc.)

I freely admit that I like climbing on pre-hung draws, whether they are perma-draws or someone else's project draws.

But the only tenable positions for draws left on routes are the two extremes:

Either we declare that there shall be NO DRAWS LEFT OVERNIGHT-- anywhere at all, be it the Maddness cave, the Darkside, or Purgatory-- except on private land where the owner takes active part in managing their climbing area and has expressly stated their preference (e.i. Muir Valley), in which case, of course, the owner's opinion takes precedence.

Or, we continue with the current system where people leave draws hanging as they see fit, for as long as they see fit, on whichever routes they see fit, and if you see the entire route hung with draws, you leave them alone, and only take them down/replace them when you see an obviously unsafe draws (except for forest service land, where you always take them down, and private land where owners have expressed an opinion about it, e.g. Roadside). Historically this resulted in moderately- to highly-steep routes in 5.12 and above grade having the draws hanging. Whether or not popular high-traffic routes that always have some draws hanging get equipped with community-purchased steel perma-draws, can be open for community decision.


But it is not tenable to say that project draws are "O.K., but only for couple weeks", even assuming that you will find people to enforce an arbitrary rule like that, they will run themselves ragged trying to keep track of which draws where hanging on which routes, and what day did they go up. Because, if someone had their petzl spirits hanging on Ale8 for 3 days, and then someone hung their BD hotwires on it for 4 days, and then someone replaced them with Petzl spirits again, that looked just like the Petzl spirits that were there before the BD, but they now belong to a new person, unless the CREW was there every day to take note of which draws were hanging, they might decide that the spirits have been hanging for longer than a week, and thus should come down, when in fact they have been there for only a day.

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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by dustonian » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:48 am

Yep. Plus the CREW will be off to Bishop or wherever soon and the draws will start pilin' up again like last time this happened.

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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by clif » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:55 am

lena_chita wrote:I can't really vote on the poll above. The longest I ever dedicated to "working" a route was 6 days, with ~1-3 attempts per day. But those 6 days have been spread over the course of couple years.

I can only come to the Red for a weekend, and it is usually every two weeks in the best-case scenario, so I do not leave my draws hanging as "project draws". I clean them at the end of the day, because there might be months before I visit the same route (because it depends on who I will be climbing with, and what their agenda is, too -- they have their priorities, projects, etc.)

I freely admit that I like climbing on pre-hung draws, whether they are perma-draws or someone else's project draws.

But the only tenable positions for draws left on routes are the two extremes:

Either we declare that there shall be NO DRAWS LEFT OVERNIGHT-- anywhere at all, be it the Maddness cave, the Darkside, or Purgatory-- except on private land where the owner takes active part in managing their climbing area and has expressly stated their preference (e.i. Muir Valley), in which case, of course, the owner's opinion takes precedence.

Or, we continue with the current system where people leave draws hanging as they see fit, for as long as they see fit, on whichever routes they see fit, and if you see the entire route hung with draws, you leave them alone, and only take them down/replace them when you see an obviously unsafe draws (except for forest service land, where you always take them down, and private land where owners have expressed an opinion about it, e.g. Roadside). Historically this resulted in moderately- to highly-steep routes in 5.12 and above grade having the draws hanging. Whether or not popular high-traffic routes that always have some draws hanging get equipped with community-purchased steel perma-draws, can be open for community decision.


But it is not tenable to say that project draws are "O.K., but only for couple weeks", even assuming that you will find people to enforce an arbitrary rule like that, they will run themselves ragged trying to keep track of which draws where hanging on which routes, and what day did they go up. Because, if someone had their petzl spirits hanging on Ale8 for 3 days, and then someone hung their BD hotwires on it for 4 days, and then someone replaced them with Petzl spirits again, that looked just like the Petzl spirits that were there before the BD, but they now belong to a new person, unless the CREW was there every day to take note of which draws were hanging, they might decide that the spirits have been hanging for longer than a week, and thus should come down, when in fact they have been there for only a day.
thank you so much for the sensible, helpful, well written post.
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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by climb2core » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:03 am

Again, in the absence if direction from the land owner....

You can have a suggested Reds ethics policy that project draws not remain up longer than X amount of time. People would choose to follow it voluntarily the way most people choose to follow not TR'ing through the anchors. Of course, there will be people that will not follow it, but I think most people tend to try to follow local crag ethics.

I have never left draws overnight at the Red. I don't even know what the Weber's policy is... all I found is this:
"No hardware of any kind may be permanently affixed to any rock in Muir Valley without the written permission of the MVNP."
But does that include project draws for a day, a week or a month? When is it "permanently affixed"


But again, it sure would be nice for the RRGCC, the Weber's and Dario to come to consensus so the rules would be universal.

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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by pigsteak » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:16 am

climb2core wrote:Why the secrecy??? An undisclosed public crag...

the wall is not important...the idea is, that why is it soooo hard to clean up after ourselves?
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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by Shamis » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:26 am

Poll isn't really valid.

You can project a climb without leaving draws. I think leaving draws behind should mean you're really close to sending. I personally wouldn't want to leave my draws up for more than a week because I don't have any spare sets laying around.

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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by bcombs » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:21 pm

climb2core wrote:.... if the standard becomes any gear seen on a route is fair game to be removed, it will create even more problems... Gear at the top, base, or taken as booty without a legitimate reason....
Which was my point, and guaranteed this will happen. When you empower the entire user base to attempt to uphold agreed upon ethics you introuduce lots of scenarios like this. Not that it is necessarily a bad thing, just a thing. For example, I've been climbing for alot of years (not so much lately, but whatever). I've been through AMGA training (two different certs) and I think I have a good handle on safety, ethics, etc... But just after the stewardship program was implemented at Muir I was "corrected" by a young man for not cleaning a "nearly vert" route on rappel as opposed to through the shuts. I swallowed my pride and accepted his critisism and moved on. But I could have just as easily exploded on him with my credentials and the Jerry Springer obligatory "you don't know me!".

My point was this, to me it doesn't seem at all feasible to establish how long and what routes can / cannot have project draws on them. In my head it makes more sense to have a black and white rule that doesn't require enforcement. We either can or cannot leave gear hanging. You mentioned it earlier with the TR through the shuts. The rule is don't do it, period. There are those that do, but the rule is not ambiguous is any way.

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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by climb2core » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:34 pm

bcombs wrote: You mentioned it earlier with the TR through the shuts. The rule is don't do it, period. There are those that do, but the rule is not ambiguous is any way.
Exactly, my example was showing that there is an understood rule that is black or white and most people choose to follow it. Now we need a new rule for project draws. Whatever time is determined (short of abandoned) and then everyone needs to be educated on it. Hopefully most people will do the "right thing" and stick to it. And as I will say again... it would be nice to have the time determined by consensus from the the RRGCC, the Weber's, and now apparently Dario. Having one standard will make the rule more black or white. Regardless, I don't think anything should be "enforced" by anyone other than the land owner. (with the exception of removing project draws if they are unsafe).

Routes with PD's or eligibility for PD's should be determined by the land owner. I think it is a great idea to create a document logging the routes with PD's and when they were put up/replaced. Then start selling steel PD's at Miguels. I would buy a couple to keep for switching out purposes if I saw one that needed it.
Last edited by climb2core on Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by Artsay » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:45 pm

Kipp - it's the warmups/cool downs that get backed up at the Lode and see the most traffic in a day. Folks just want to move quick on them. It's typically not a "nice relaxing day at the crag" at the Lode...it's a training ground with folks screaming battle sounds with each move, cursing failure when they fall, and often times an audience of encouragment pushing climbers up their projects and applauding a hard send.

I posted the poll because I also don't think there can be a pre-determined acceptable time project draws can stay on a route, it just depends on so many factors.

Good post lena_chita.
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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by the lurkist » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:05 pm

I think that if the solution is a binary one, and the etiquette bcomes one where no draws are left over night, then there will be few problems with people having gear taken, b/c they won't be leaving it. What I mean is if you know when you leave your draws up they might not be there when you come back, you won't leave them. My personal approach is that I will take the left gear off the route and hang them on the anchors. Not to be a dick, but to keep them from arbitrarily being picked up at the base if I had left them there. I am not trying to be dogmatic about this, and if somebody has there draws on Chainsaw and is standing there and says that I can go through his gear, then I will use them. But for left gear, I won't use it, and have taken down gear off of routes (Stain, Katey Brown) in the past. In both of these cases the gear was horrible and had clearly been left seasons ago.
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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by pigsteak » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:09 pm

ok, I am weak sauce then..I thought the 11's on the left side were the warmups....
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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by dustonian » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:14 pm

the lurkist wrote:I think that if the solution is a binary one, and the etiquette bcomes one where no draws are left over night, then there will be few problems with people having gear taken, b/c they won't be leaving it. What I mean is if you know when you leave your draws up they might not be there when you come back, you won't leave them. My personal approach is that I will take the left gear off the route and hang them on the anchors. Not to be a dick, but to keep them from arbitrarily being picked up at the base if I had left them there. I am not trying to be dogmatic about this, and if somebody has there draws on Chainsaw and is standing there and says that I can go through his gear, then I will use them. But for left gear, I won't use it, and have taken down gear off of routes (Stain, Katey Brown) in the past. In both of these cases the gear was horrible and had clearly been left seasons ago.
Be sure to take down all the draws in Hell while you're at it too... or the "ethical" code doesn't apply there because it's "secret"? Same goes for A6, PG, Dark Side, Gold Coast, Bob Marley, Purgatory, Shady Grove, Drive By... you should also go on a roadtrip to Rifle, Maple, Jailhouse, NRG, Rumney, and dozens of other crags to swipe their draws too... you know, spread the fervor like a religious fundamentalist. Go strip Muir as well by dark of night.

At some point you gotta face it, this ain't 1997 anymore. If the draws are sketchy or their presence on a route truly offends your delicate sensibilities, then take 'em down... it ain't that complex. We're big boys & girls with our own eyeballs and tactile sense. Otherwise fuckin climb and stop proselytizing everyone, for god's sake... it is truly irritating.

On another note, if you guys think you can "educate" every single visitor to the RRG into complying with whatever dictates the "community" decides, you are straight-up delusional. All these stupid climbing "rules" everyone is throwing out are a pain in the ass. Just climb and take charge of your own safety. If a draw breaks it's your own damn fault for clipping it, dumb ass. All this kicking and screaming by the CREW et al. is plain desperate. Go volunteer or work on something important!

BTW Hugh you are replacing any and all worn-out SSGI's on the Undertow after a couple years of dumbasses lowering directly through them. I give Chainsaw 5-6 years tops with "our community's" new holier-than-thou dictates.
Last edited by dustonian on Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

Post by twobmary » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:35 pm

You forgot the disclaimer that should say “Poll only intended for climbers projecting .12+ and above. All other draws left on 'projects' are considered booty.” Am I wrong?

So to answer your question, it’s until I leave that particular crag on that day. Crazy I know, working a route and having to set the draws and clean it. But since my projects are only of the .11 grade I don't qualify to leave project draws b/c I guess I'm not badass enough. That's not sarcasm, that's realism. And that's the way it should be.

In my opinion, (and who am I?) if it's convenience and "safety" people want there are plenty of gyms conveniently located with conveniently pre-hung draws that people conveniently don't have to clean. All these gray areas everyone wants to create around what works for them, two weeks, two months... These discussions are so frustrating. I’m actually finding myself thinking pigsteak is one of the only level headed ones! I can't believe it.

And how am I supposed to know how long your draws have been hanging for anyway??





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