Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

[tbwilsonky]

Awesome. If someone gets my draws off Reticent will you shoot me a pm. Thanks!

[climb2core]

Awesome. If someone gets my draws off Reticent will you shoot me a pm. Thanks!

lmao

[pigsteak]

I thought you'd say that..in that case, I'll scream even louder. PD's are a really bad idea. lazy climbers making their "sport" even lazier. only if all you pro PD's folks agree that bolting trad lines is also OK will I even agree with your "justification" for leaving this visual trash on the walls. come on, cracks need to get moving..this ain't 1997 ya know.

Does this make you and other developers who have posted on here "lazy" for leaving draws up on red-tagged routes? Because if it's about "trash" being on the wall, then let's be consistent. But maybe you don't really believe this who knows. You are usually talking out of both sides of your mouth just to keep the threads going.

lmao...ya think?

[captain static]

I look at it this way. If you were backpacking, set up your tents at a base camp, then went on some day hikes from that camp, and finally broke it down and went home that would be great. However, if you went out and set up the same base camp, went home for a few weeks or so to return for your day hikes, that would not be cool and you would probably return to find someone had taken your tents. So I personally don't have a problem with project draws if you are working a climb over a shorth period of time. But not cool to leave them up for weeks or months while you are gone elsewhere.

[shear]

I look at it this way. If you were backpacking, set up your tents at a base camp, then went on some day hikes from that camp, and finally broke it down and went home that would be great. However, if you went out and set up the same base camp, went home for a few weeks or so to return for your day hikes, that would not be cool and you would probably return to find someone had taken your tents. So I personally don't have a problem with project draws if you are working a climb over a shorth period of time. But not cool to leave them up for weeks or months while you are gone elsewhere.

If the Red were my local area...I would absolutely leave my project draws up until I sent. Your analogy is way off. Completely different set of arbitrary rules set by a precedent...you cannot compare the two at all.

[rhunt]

So if those completely different set of arbitary rules set by a precedent cause access issues and an unsustainable situation and environment, should a new precedent by made? Just becuase PD work at other areas in the US doesn't mean they are ok at the Red.

[caribe]

So if those completely different set of arbitary rules set by a precedent cause access issues and an unsustainable situation and environment, should a new precedent by made? Just becuase PD work at other areas in the US doesn't mean they are ok at the Red.

Land owner rules, then FA/ developer. Climber should be cognizant, so she needs to read the beta notes in the online guide. It amazes me the amount of people who climb the Red who are utterly ignorant of this site.

[Clevis Hitch]

Lets make this the rule, in fact it actually is the rule and is understood to be the rule any where other than here. If you leave your shit, you takes your chances.

[captain static]

Lets make this the rule, in fact it actually is the rule and is understood to be the rule any where other than here. If you leave your shit, you takes your chances.

Exactly what I was saying with my analogy.

[Clevis Hitch]

wow, i feel funny inside...did we just agree on something?My head hurts,I'm gonna take a nap now...

[toad857]

whatever happened to "When in Rome, do as the Romans do"?

[dustonian]

Lets make this the rule, in fact it actually is the rule and is understood to be the rule any where other than here. If you leave your shit, you takes your chances.

Exactly what I was saying with my analogy.

Ha ha, does this include the bolts, hangers, and chain/rings at the anchor too, boys? How about the anchor on trad routes? Such a distinction is arbitrary by nature.

[Clevis Hitch]

ya takes yo chances...

[captain static]

FYI…Project draws under the law are not necessarily abandoned property. They are unattended property. It is the intent of the owner that generally controls. The FS may consider project draws that way but they do so for convenience and because they give notice, as a land owner/manager can, and should. But when there is no clear guidance on the subject, it is the intent of the owner of the property whether it was meant to be unattended or abandoned, and therefore subject for seizure.Shannon Stuart-Smith

I am no lawyer but from from searching the subject, unattended property on public land is generally considered to have been abandoned after 24 to 48 hours. As far as camping gear, if this is left unattended for more than 72 hours, then the Forest Service considers it to have been abandoned, backing up my analogy. I found this definition which may be informative - “Abandoned property” is that to which an owner has relinquished all rights, title, claim and possession, with no intention of reclaiming it or resuming ownership or possession.

[Clevis Hitch]

whoa!! cap'n you beat me to the punch!

Just to be clear: All gear left on property other than your own enters the public domain and should be regarded as such. I think "policy" should be...you are responsible for your own safety and property. You are responsible for your own self. wipe your own ass.