Please Explain It To Me.

Gaston? High Step? Drop Knee? Talk in here.
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One-Fall
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Please Explain It To Me.

Post by One-Fall » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:11 pm

An anonymous post into the online guide concerning Paradise Lost:
- I walked into Purgatory about a month ago to find Dave Graham effortlessly crushing everything at the crag. I watched the man do all the 13B's, Paradise Lost included. He used the no hands and said it was still a 13B, just a bit soft. I dont see what the problem is using it. It really isnt "15 feet off route" it is directly under the line of bolts up the face. Also I can reach the rest with my hand still on the jug. That Ledge is on.


This argument came up 7 years ago. Why is it still being talked about? Why does it matter if its rated 13a or 13b? Are you still not climbing Paradise Lost? Is it still not one of the best lines in the Red, independent of its grade?

Please explain to me why the poster needs affirmation that the route IS 13b. Thanks in advance.
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SCIN
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Re: Please Explain It To Me.

Post by SCIN » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:04 pm

Only one explanation. Small penis.
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Spikeddem
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Re: Please Explain It To Me.

Post by Spikeddem » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:26 pm

Dunno. Thank God you made a post about it though. With a little luck and seven years time, perhaps we'll know the answer.

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Re: Please Explain It To Me.

Post by graniteclimber » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:29 pm

Many struggle with the 2nd pitch off that ledge.

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Re: Please Explain It To Me.

Post by stix » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:39 pm

cuz he's a fucking tool
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der uber
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Re: Please Explain It To Me.

Post by der uber » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:10 pm

The rest is pretty good there. I never went down to the ledge, but I'm sure if you chill out there for a while that makes it easier. I do not have a good feel for a difference in grade. The early moves are bouldery but the second half is the toughest.

Whatever the grade it doesn't get much better.

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Re: Please Explain It To Me.

Post by allah » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:25 am

Its because I'm motha F***in GOD!!!!!!!! Everything is as I say! This debate is over!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: Please Explain It To Me.

Post by CDNJer » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:02 pm

Sadly, although the FA'er is a true visionary when it comes to finding, cleaning and bolting the best lines in the Red, he's not the sharpest tack in the box. After getting the FA, the hoards of onlookers who had come to witness this great event, pointed out the ledge to him. He instantly burst into tears little a small toddler. After consoling him with some cookies and a warm cup of hot chocolate, he admitted that he was wrong. However, after years of hearing the question about the ledge over and over again, he has grown very bitter over the whole affair. At first he fled the area to the other side of the country in hopes of leaving the endless questioning behind him. Alas, the questions continued to role in as the original poster has demonstrated. At last report he has left to Europe to try and find some peace. Should you ever meet the visionary in person, it would be better not to bring it up, as there is no telling what he may do. Let the sleeping bear sleep.

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Re: Please Explain It To Me.

Post by toad857 » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:26 pm

SCIN wrote:Only one explanation. Small penis.

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pigsteak
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Re: Please Explain It To Me.

Post by pigsteak » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:15 pm

elephant in the room alert...elephant in the room....

duh, because all climbing is about the grade no matter what all you self-deceived "all's good" brah loving 8a.nu or redriverclimbing.com point chasers wanna admit. keep beating up anonymous but we all know that any single one of you could have wrote that. you're just jealous they beat you to it.
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.

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Re: Please Explain It To Me.

Post by Brentucky » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:35 pm

I'm just jealous that anonymous got to see Dave Graham crush all those routes in person. All I get to see on a good day is pigsteak getting pulled down.
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Re: Please Explain It To Me.

Post by Jay » Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:54 pm

Pulled down or jerked off?
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Re: Please Explain It To Me.

Post by JR » Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:16 am

The appeal to authority may take several forms. As a statistical syllogism, it will have the following basic structure:[1]

Most of what authority A has to say on subject matter S is correct.
A says p about S.
Therefore, p is correct.

The strength of this argument depends upon two factors:[1][2]

The authority is a legitimate expert on the subject.
A consensus exists among legitimate experts on the matter under discussion.
Most of what Dave G. says about grades is correct.
Dave G. says 13b about Paradise Lost.
Therefore, 13b is correct.

The strength of the argument depend on

1. Is Dave really a expert on low 13's???? Maybe.
2. 10 people voted 13b and 2 voted 13a. Experts on the subject??? Maybe.

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Re: Please Explain It To Me.

Post by heavyc » Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:27 am

why are grades important: because whether you admit it or not for most of us it is not the beauty of climbing or the aesthetics of the wall or being outside that is most important, it is being able to face a considerable challenge (often physical and mental) and come out of it a better person for having given it a great effort both while on route and in the preparation before, if you can quantify that challenge then it usually will have more meaning (for those occasions when you did what was supposed to be a project quickly who hasn't felt just a twinge of being cheated or not had the thought cross your mind that the route was either soft for the grade or just fit your strengths well? or if an "expert" told you something that took you a lot of work was soft for the grade who doesn't feel a loss of accomplishment?)
I am not ashamed to admit that I am a numbers chaser, I want to be able to do the harder challenge and for the most part the grades given on the site and in the guidebook are pretty accurate, but when an expert can verify something as legit, all the better
Paradise Lost is an awesome route no matter its grade but if I was to project it and send it I am not afraid to admit that I would have more satisfaction from the send if it was a consensus 13b as opposed to 13a, in the past I have gotten more satisfaction from sending one route that seemed to play to my personal weaknesses than another of the exact same grade that played to my strengths

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Re: Please Explain It To Me.

Post by toad857 » Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:49 am

I don't know... still seems more like an ego thing to me when we have to invoke the distinction between 13a and 13b.

Whatever consensus the grade may be (on any route), only you can decide how big of a challenge it was for you. Climbing is a personal adventure, and only you can judge your accomplishment---is your end-game just getting up and clipping the chains? Or is it to send the route in style, with complete mental control and absolute focus? Nobody on the ground will know if you almost wet your pants at the crux...but you will. Not all sends are equal, whatever the grade.

The idea of "quantifying" the challenge doesn't resonate with me: What's more difficult--for an experienced climber to overcome fear and physical hurdles on a 5.13b, or for a brand-new climber to overcome the same obstacles on a 5.7? To me, it's the same thing through and through. There's no difference. I still feel the same way when I get to a route's crux as I did on my first day of climbing. How I react to it, though, has changed. And that can't be quantified.

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