Who- neon green tags

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JR
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Re: Who- neon green tags

Post by JR » Wed May 02, 2012 9:43 am

bentley wrote:If you need to read a manual before you go bolt a route, you don't need to be bolting!!!
????

allah
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Re: Who- neon green tags

Post by allah » Wed May 02, 2012 10:05 am

bentley wrote:If you need to read a manual before you go bolt a route, you don't need to be bolting!!!

Bolting is a serious responsibility and if you see it any other way please do not bolt anything and that includes replacing existing gear.

DISLIKE!!!! Dude, when I first started bolting it would have been great to have something to help navigate what I was doing. I was lucky enough to have a few friends loan me their gear to use and what bolts to use but I had no clue what the hell I was doing out there. Luckily I got it right and didn't die, there were a few close calls that could have been avoided if maybe there was something to guide me. I think the write up Rick Weber posted a few years back was great and should be used by everyone bolting their first route.

The climbing community is growing which means the amount of people wanting to bolt a route or two is going to grow as well. It is better to educate the community about the practices instead of trying to shun them away, and then later hear about them hurting themselves later.

As far as this new area, keep up your hard work Matt!!!! Can't wait to come back and visit to see all the new stuff. Be Safe out there! Off to the Gym in Rainy southern Germany!

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Re: Who- neon green tags

Post by Andrew » Wed May 02, 2012 10:08 am

Agreed... It would have been nice if Allah had read a manual because the routes he put up are crap.
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Re: Who- neon green tags

Post by DriskellHR » Wed May 02, 2012 10:27 am

I always do this......
What I ment was if you are going to bolt on the pmrp please tell us. We are not going to chop bolts we just want to know what's going up where and who is doing it do we can have some kinda management plan in place for the area. Sorry for the confusion sounds like I started a shit storm "approval was a poor choice of words, it was early....... My bad y'all I'll try to be clearer. I'm good with my hands not my words unless I'm trying to be a dick ;)

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Re: Who- neon green tags

Post by bentley » Wed May 02, 2012 10:45 am

Ok, I googled learning to lead climb on gear. I came up with this from REI.com. My point being if you read a "manual" and then have the disillusion that you know what your doing, your in deep trouble! This is a great example!

Lead Climbing — The Next Level
Sometimes it's impossible to anchor your climbing rope above you before you start climbing. When this happens, you must anchor your rope to the rock as you climb to limit the distance you'll drop if you fall. Any time you climb up above your highest rope anchor point, you are said to be "lead" climbing.

Lead climbing requires a lot of skill and a lot of practice. It also requires additional climbing equipment.

Sport Lead Climbing
Sport climbing involves climbing routes that already have anchors affixed to the rock that you can attach your rope to. When climbing a sport route, you must carry special carabiners and nylon connectors called "quick-draws" with you to "clip-in to" these anchors and connect them to your climbing rope.

Traditional Lead Climbing
On non-sport lead climbs, you have to create your own anchors in the rock as you climb. This means carrying special gear called "rock protection" that you can wedge into nooks, crannies and cracks in the rock as you go. You must also carry the gear mentioned above to attach your rope to these temporary anchors.

How to Learn More
The key to learning how to climb safely is to start with expert instruction. REI highly recommends that you learn basic techniques and the proper use of climbing gear under the watchful eye of an experienced climbing instructor. A good way to supplement this instruction is to read indoor wall at your local REI store.


I think common sense and A MENTOR is the most important thing when learning such a skill.

Another good point is someone posted a photo from Muir Valley the other weekend on Facebook of someone that was top roping through draws through the anchors. However at the bottom of the 2 draws there was a single steel quick link. Why? They had determined that steel was stronger than aluminum and therefor this was the best system.

Book knowledge has its place and something like bolting requires way too many gut feelings, common sense and experience to rely on such book knowledge.

Plus Allah, if you had a read a book you likely would not have crawled across the "ledge" to establish the anchors on the arete nor would you have finished bolting naked!!
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Re: Who- neon green tags

Post by JR » Wed May 02, 2012 1:35 pm

RTFM

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... CQ&cad=rja

Somebody was smart enough to write it. Why not be smart enough to read it?

Sorry B I can't agree. Amusing anecdotes though....

Kenny +1

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Re: Who- neon green tags

Post by EricDorsey » Wed May 02, 2012 2:47 pm

Id disagree too...

Who says a "mentor" has any clue what they are doing? Is there some sort of certification to become a bolting "mentor"?

I think the manual is great and was pretty interesting to read through, it is one of MANY resources I would use if I was going to start bolting. I don't think anyone is suggesting the manual is all you need to learn to bolt, just that it is a good resource. Also its not really fair to compare REI's poor quality guide to the great manual Rick put together, two totally different things.

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Re: Who- neon green tags

Post by allah » Wed May 02, 2012 3:17 pm

Yea Bentley there is a few things that I did bolting Purgatory that most people in there right mind wouldn't have done :) !!!! But it would have been nice to know how deep I needed to drill my holes the first few times so I didn't waste a few bolts (not thinking about the sand build up in the back of the hole). Knowing how much torque a bolt actually needs is huge and I remember having to go back and tighten just about everything i placed. I would have saved a lot of time and possibly not putting my tooth through my lip! The thing that Rick Wrote up is one of the best how to guides I have ever read. If you haven't read it check it out. I personally feel that everyone needs to learn to place a bolt or two so that they have some sort of respect for the work that is involved in new routing and upkeep. To many people take it for granted even the seasoned locals in the area.

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Re: Who- neon green tags

Post by pigsteak » Wed May 02, 2012 6:47 pm

manual and a mentor....
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Re: Who- neon green tags

Post by bentley » Wed May 02, 2012 8:04 pm

I hear you Kenny. I will take a look at Ricks manual.

To whom is may concern - Mentor = someone who has bolted a lot of routes successfully. Check out guide books, the information is right there.

Kenny, to one of your points. How deep to drill so as to not hit sand, we all know that varies from hole to whole. Someone can not tell you the answer to that in a book.

That is the problem that I have with Ricks manual is he has tried to put an engineers type science to a substrate that has far too many variables. Mechanical and chemical anchors are tested in concrete. There are different types of concrete. But 20,000 psi concrete is 20,000 psi concrete. There is not a sand pocket 4" below the surface, cracks or pockets. Corbin sandstone is the farthest thing from such a substrate. Pull tests are great, in a substrate that is consistent OR you would have to run thousands of test to have an accurate sample pool.

For the record I have found that a flat head screw driver makes for a great piece of gear while bolting. Very unlikely to blow and bust a tooth or lip. I had many of these "placements" on Taste the Rainbow.
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Re: Who- neon green tags

Post by RRO » Wed May 02, 2012 10:54 pm

damn, i was just calling out trying to find out who was creeping in on an area without trying to talk to the folks working it first, which is normal around here. really just plain ole bitching and moaning. i wasnt telling them no, yes or preach to them. i just wanted to find out who was trashing up, and tagging routes we had already dropped ropes on. in all reality my health will not allow me to bolt till winter or hell, never. just trying to keep the common courtesies we as developers have offered each other around here for the most part. 99.99% of the time i will give a route already bolted away, or say go for it if i had my eye on a line, just ask...

anyone can climb a rock, few have the skills, time and vision to develop. if youre new to the game, working with a "mentor" that is familiar with the area and its stone is the top priority, too many nuances and gray areas to teach in a manual or figure out on your own, esp since others lifes are depending on it. those of us that have bolted here awhile have all made plenty of mistakes and have fixed more than our share of others, you cant find that in a book or at walmart.... but on the flip side, if youre going to do anything in this world, do it your best. that means gathering and understanding all the information that is out there, this includes webers book, studying good/bad routes you have been on, reading your owners manuals of the equipment/hardware, talking to anyone that will listen, find internet sites and generally striving to " not fuck it up"....

as far as the pmrp we will be posting some new info soon on the rrgcc site. again, most of this will pertain to what we expect the approach trails, cliff base impact and things along that nature to be and to be communicated. we need to know when new areas and routes are going up, though we are not approving or denying the routes , we just want to make sure that the infrastructure(yes, its even in nature. think, trails, features and cliff bases) are there to support the crowds that will come in time. as climbers our trail building skills and ability to see just how much an area will be impacted and abused has been horrible, look at most climber trails all over the red. we now have enough mistakes under our belts, training, tools and labor to stop this mentality and help protect the lands we use.
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Re: Who- neon green tags

Post by bentley » Wed May 02, 2012 11:02 pm

Tacket. Thanks for all your hard work. Bolting a rig is of course only part of the equation. Your expertise goes a long way and I hope kore more people will realize what you have accomplished.
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Re: Who- neon green tags

Post by Clevis Hitch » Sat May 05, 2012 6:10 pm

I become sexually excited when I read "freedom of the hills". Doesn't everyone?
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