R/X sport routes

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pigsteak
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R/X sport routes

Post by pigsteak » Thu May 17, 2012 1:01 pm

with all the talk of leaving r/x gear routes out there for the masses, are there any objections to intentionally making r/x sport climbs? what is the difference?
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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by Andrew » Thu May 17, 2012 1:18 pm

why in the red??? I have done these in NC where there is a strong ethic against putting in bolts so you get routes with dangerous runouts or sketchy gear. It is R/X only becuase of the local gear ethic. We have no such gear ethic... in fact ours is the opposite.
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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by pigsteak » Thu May 17, 2012 1:26 pm

why not in the Red? I am having a hard time getting my head around the "leave sketchy seams for gear climbers"....like that is some badge of honor...seems to be some spicy bolted routes would be the equivalent.
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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by climb2core » Thu May 17, 2012 1:35 pm

No one says you have to clip all the bolts. Anyone can make any climb R/X if they want to. The point is, is that trad climbing protection is largely determined by the rock. Sport climbing protection is largely determined by the developer.

Besides, everyone knows trad climbing is for the bold, and sport climbing is for the weenies. However, I do like the "safe spice" a la Diablo and Black Swan.
Last edited by climb2core on Fri May 18, 2012 10:56 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by Shamis » Thu May 17, 2012 1:37 pm

Putting up new routes with no bolts is admirable from a leave no trace perspective. But once you start bolting, deliberately making the route dangerous is a perversion of ethics.

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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by dustonian » Thu May 17, 2012 1:40 pm

I can't think of any legitimate R/X "gear" climbs in the Red (established top-down). There are a handful of traditional climbs (established ground-up) with X ratings at Tower Rock and elsewhere... the difference is these were established ground-up, rather than top-down, so safety considerations take a back seat at the discretion of the first ascentionist. When I establish a ground-up traditional route, I will add a bolt if it is to avoid an X (death fall) rating, or occasionally if there is an R-rated section at the crux. This is rarely the case in the Red for whatever reason. If cleaning and checking out a gear-protected route from the top-down, I will typically put in a bolt to eliminate fall potential that would result in broken bones (R-rated), especially if the section in question involves crux moves, or if the existing protection options are behind potentially dangerous expanding flakes or blocks (It's a Trap! is an example of this).

The seam in question at Choco takes good pro if you know how to place it. It wouldn't even qualify for "light R" status at most traditional areas around the US... the pro is fairly typical for 5.11+ "PG" in places like the Gunks or Eldo.

An R/X-rated rap-bolted sport route is just another way of saying "botched bolting job." That said, as I know you also enjoy Pig, I often like to push bolts to the edge of where they can be safely clipped, often resulting in whining a la one recent comment on Scarlet Scorchdropper. However, the "risk" is only perceived by the climber in these situations ("emotional risk"), rather than actual physical risk. A fall would result in no consequences, provided your belayer is remotely competent, you know how to fall, and your gear is well maintained.

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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by Shamis » Thu May 17, 2012 2:15 pm

Unless of course, a bolt fails.

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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by dustonian » Thu May 17, 2012 2:16 pm

Of course, I guess I think of bolts being included in that last qualifier. That said, I may revise Scorchdropper a bit at some point to make it more 5.11-friendly. It has one move of techy 5.10 at present with the bolt below your feet... standard operating procedure at most areas, but considered "R" by many in the RRG whether the fall is "safe" or not.

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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by toad857 » Thu May 17, 2012 2:43 pm

pigsteak wrote:are there any objections to intentionally making r/x sport climbs? what is the difference?
The real question: If a climber gets killed on a route like that.... is the bolter really going to be prepared to defend their decision? My guess is no, and it would be bad.

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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by der uber » Thu May 17, 2012 3:01 pm

climb2core wrote:However, I do like the "safe spice" a la Diablo and Black Swan.
What about these two routes do you find spicy?

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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by pigsteak » Thu May 17, 2012 3:07 pm

toad857 wrote:
pigsteak wrote:are there any objections to intentionally making r/x sport climbs? what is the difference?
The real question: If a climber gets killed on a route like that.... is the bolter really going to be prepared to defend their decision? My guess is no, and it would be bad.
defend their decision?...oh boy, here we go....so on a mixed route, if the bolt fails and it results in the climber decking, you are saying that developer is to be held accountable? that's a slippery slope if we start doing that. when booting up below any climb, the climber automatically takes their own safety into their hands. all bolts should be treated as suspect.
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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by pigsteak » Thu May 17, 2012 3:11 pm

der uber, I can answer for diablo....a fall with rope out at the bolt above the "arrow" hold would come potentially close to a grounder. I caught a buddy two weeks ago with no rope out, him at that bolt and we collided with a good catch. he does outweigh me 40 pounds, but I was the next fattest guy at the crag.....closer to PG, prob not R. but when i rebolt it with glueins it'll get one more bolt.

black swan....nah.
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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by dustonian » Thu May 17, 2012 3:13 pm

Just curious, anyone know who put up the older routes there? Brian McCray?

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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by pigsteak » Thu May 17, 2012 3:20 pm

we were going with mccray or anderson....diablo and red bull were the only two lines bolted. and higher anchors on black swan but no bolts on the route.
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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by climb2core » Thu May 17, 2012 3:22 pm

Just the 12-14 ft. or so spacing after you get up about 40 ft or so above the deck. On BS, once you run around the 1/2 circle, you still have to pull up another 3-4 ft. to get to the bolt. I am always heel hooked with my left leg there, right leg flagging in the air. Every time I look down to pull slack for that clip and see the last bolt about 15 ft down it makes my heart speed up just a bit. Nothing really scary, no real fall issues, just big air.

On Diablo, we had a novice climber fall at the 4th clip, which is about 12 feet above the last bolt. He had a lighter belayer and pulled his belayer so that his gri-gri was in the first draw. The climber fell to with in a couple feet of the ground, albeit slowly as he was pulling his belayer up. But his fall was ultimately arrested by the 1st draw.

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