R/X sport routes

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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by dustonian » Thu May 17, 2012 3:25 pm

Sounds like it's time to lose some weight...

Oh yeah, while I got ya on the line Pig, someone was asking me about the nice finger/handcrack on the left side of the crag. I think it has an anchor... on the shorter side, no not Wicked. details?

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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by pigsteak » Thu May 17, 2012 4:17 pm

I know where of you speak. we can check with russ, but russ, myself or jeff did that one. I am drawing a blank right now. pretty good little line....rjackson, you remember?
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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by toad857 » Thu May 17, 2012 4:17 pm

pigsteak wrote:
toad857 wrote:
pigsteak wrote:are there any objections to intentionally making r/x sport climbs? what is the difference?
The real question: If a climber gets killed on a route like that.... is the bolter really going to be prepared to defend their decision? My guess is no, and it would be bad.
defend their decision?...oh boy, here we go....so on a mixed route, if the bolt fails and it results in the climber decking, you are saying that developer is to be held accountable? that's a slippery slope if we start doing that. when booting up below any climb, the climber automatically takes their own safety into their hands. all bolts should be treated as suspect.
I don't see it analagous to a bolt failing on a mixed route. It's more like someone going up there and smashing a perfectly good bolt with a hammer to make it R/X on purpose.

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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by Yasmeen » Thu May 17, 2012 4:22 pm

climb2core wrote:... trad climbing protection is largely determined by the rock. Sport climbing protection is largely determined by the developer.
Shamis wrote:... once you start bolting, deliberately making the route dangerous is a perversion of ethics.
c2c and Shamis said it well. That said, if you're itching to put up a truly R/X rated sport route, just advertise it for what it is, the way that trad routes of that nature are flagged. That way at least people know what they're getting into, the way they do when they see the little R or X next to a trad route in the guidebook.

Also, as a developer, you're pretty much developing for a) yourself, b) others, or c) both - right? If you're looking for a spicy sport route, then putting up an R/X line makes sense. If your answer is either b) or c), though, and you know that making your route unsafe is going to reduce (or eliminate) the number of people who get on it, then it's not really worth the money to put in, say, 5 bolts instead of 8 - right? You've now spent money on a route most people are going to pass up.
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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by camhead » Thu May 17, 2012 4:55 pm

One of the extreme examples for r/x rated sport routes (and by "sport" I mean simply rap-inspected, cleaned, worked, and bolted) was a line that TIm Kemple put up in the NE a few years back (can't remember the name). As I recall, he established the whole thing top-down, made the 5.13 crux very safely bolted, but intentionally left 11+ moves with decking, x-rated potential. In my mind, that's pretty lame. He knew what he was establishing; we're not talking about some Bachar-Yerian ground up committal here. We're not talking about a completely boltless, TR-rehearsed headpoint, either. What he created was a line that nobody is going to be able to do, unless they also pre-inspect it from the top-down; I can't think of too many even elite-status climbers who would willingly commit to onsight soloing 11+ slab.

That said, in the early days of sport climbing, the attitude was that, if you were getting on a 5.12 route, you should be able to go into little-r territory on 10a or so; there are a few sport routes at the NRG or Smith like that, and a lot of more new-school climbers would consider them to be full-on R-rated horror shows, even if the cruxes are totally safe. Not every route has to be a Muir Valley grid-fest.
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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by pigsteak » Thu May 17, 2012 5:03 pm

yas, sport routes are bolted for all of course..a r/x bolted line would be more of a 'courage" thing for me...and no one makes anyone repeat it. I respect kemple's NE climb as he did it in a way that was challenging for him.

back to dustin's "botched bolt job" comment...couldnt the same be for the overbolting we see around the gorge? isnt four feet apart also terrible planning on the developers part?
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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by pigsteak » Thu May 17, 2012 5:05 pm

dustin, russ said jeff has the FA of that line but the name escapes him.
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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by dustonian » Thu May 17, 2012 5:08 pm

Cool, it got some rave reviews recently. I need to get back up there sometime... damn truck front differential just went out tho.

pigsteak wrote: back to dustin's "botched bolt job" comment...couldnt the same be for the overbolting we see around the gorge? isnt four feet apart also terrible planning on the developers part?
I think so... I hate seeing lines of huge shiny ass zinc-blue Fixe hangers every 4 feet. The aesthetic aspect is as important as the climbing to me (another reason I like glue-ins, they are harder to see). But honestly you don't see overbolting in the Red as much as in some other sport areas... as hard as that is to believe!

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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by climb2core » Thu May 17, 2012 5:28 pm

Botched bolting...

1.) Too Far= Injury/death possible in fall, limits climbers getting on the route, cheaper, climbs and looks visually more aesthetic, adds some excitement/headiness.

2.) Too close= Lacks visual and climbing aesthetics, waste of $$$ and time, good for new leaders learning to lead, may encourage people to get on routes they shouldn't be on.

I think you need to have some of both with the entire walls character defined as on the "bold side", or grid bolted. That way people know what to expect when they show up and there are no surprises. Personally, I like the first 30 feet well protected, and then air it out barring any unsafe fall potential such as a ledge or roof.

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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by der uber » Thu May 17, 2012 8:11 pm

climb2core wrote:Just the 12-14 ft. or so spacing after you get up about 40 ft or so above the deck. On BS, once you run around the 1/2 circle, you still have to pull up another 3-4 ft. to get to the bolt. I am always heel hooked with my left leg there, right leg flagging in the air. Every time I look down to pull slack for that clip and see the last bolt about 15 ft down it makes my heart speed up just a bit. Nothing really scary, no real fall issues, just big air.

On Diablo, we had a novice climber fall at the 4th clip, which is about 12 feet above the last bolt. He had a lighter belayer and pulled his belayer so that his gri-gri was in the first draw. The climber fell to with in a couple feet of the ground, albeit slowly as he was pulling his belayer up. But his fall was ultimately arrested by the 1st draw.
The 1/2 circle, you mean where the no-hands rest is? There's no way those bolts are more than 10 ft apart.

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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by pigsteak » Thu May 17, 2012 8:25 pm

i think he means three bolts higher where you surf out left and then come back in right....
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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by One-Fall » Thu May 17, 2012 8:36 pm

Is the crack called nut gobbler?
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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by climb2core » Thu May 17, 2012 10:08 pm

Yeah, Pig has what I meant right. It may not be 15, but pretty sure it is at least a few more than 10.

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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by pigsteak » Fri May 18, 2012 7:38 am

nut gobbler...that is correct lee...
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Re: R/X sport routes

Post by dustonian » Fri May 18, 2012 9:15 am

Excellent name. Glad Jeff got to it before Monsieur Pig could bolt it :twisted:

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