Decking at the Lode...

Gaston? High Step? Drop Knee? Talk in here.
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pigsteak
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Decking at the Lode...

Post by pigsteak » Sun May 27, 2012 10:32 pm

fill us in...who decked, who was belaying, and why was the SUM involved? On Ale8 is all I got. And are they alright?
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krampus
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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by krampus » Sun May 27, 2012 10:38 pm

The season has officially begun, were perma draws the root cause? Those things are a menace.
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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by THB » Mon May 28, 2012 12:04 am

Yes, the SUM was the device that was being used. The climber broke his leg in several places, but he is okay and is already on the road to recovery. Perma-draws were NOT the root cause of the accident. The climber is a very competent 5.12 climber.

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by allah » Mon May 28, 2012 2:41 am

Names! We need Names!!!!!! Like Piggy wanted, NAMES!

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Saxman
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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by Saxman » Mon May 28, 2012 12:10 pm

Caribe must be asleep since we haven't been chastised to use a Click Up.
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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by caribe » Mon May 28, 2012 2:00 pm

Saxman wrote:Caribe must be asleep since we haven't been chastised to use a Click Up.
. It really is a passion-free analysis. You might feel better to see me as an extremist zealot. I don't think that I am . . . I hope I am not. Our friendship over the years should get you thinking. I remember climbing with you that day when we first saw someone tie into a rewoven bowline. We are both climbing on that knot today. The advantages are obvious.
. . .
I used the ATC exclusively for a few years. The Grigri has obvious advantages in the autoblock. The disadvantage is the belayer can disengage it and it is routinely disengaged during operation. The clickup autoblocks but does not suffer from the latter disadvantage. It is therefore an objectively superior device. So I choose it over the Grigri.
...
I lose religion pretty quick. I can easily envision being introduced to a new device and making the same analysis and giving up the clickup.
...
I was in this argument with a religious fellow one time. At some point in the discussion he accused me of simply choosing the position that was easiest to defend. I said yes, that is all I do. Sometimes deciding which position is easiest to defend is a bit dicey. Therein lies the content.

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by krampus » Mon May 28, 2012 3:29 pm

So back to the point. It really sucks that someone was hurt, I am truly sorry to hear that and glad he is alive. I always wonder how likely it is that it will be me in that spot someday. It is important to learn from these incidents.

The climber made it through the ranks to the mother load. Had the belayer made it past animal crackers?
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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by KD » Mon May 28, 2012 9:41 pm

Dang Caribe, that was nicely written.

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by jkpugel » Mon May 28, 2012 11:53 pm

I'm going to chime in here. I don't often post on here, I read through some of the endless posts here and enjoy some of them but really a lot of it is just a bunch of people giving each other crap, gossiping like 13 year old middle school girls, or just giving each other a good laugh, which is all well and good. Sometimes there are situations that people feel are necessary to post about and I guess we needed to have another post about decking so here are the facts since I was there, climbed frequently for several years with both people involved, used the belay device in question, and helped get the climber out with the EMT's and quite a few willing volunteers. The climber was solid at the grade and had climbed Ale-8 the week before several times and was close to sending. He fell at the last bolt and the belayer locked off the way the manufacturer says to lock off and the way he (as well as the climber and I) had locked off and caught many falls before. However, the belay device (It's called a Sum, good design, obviously not fool proof. A little info here, http://www.bluedome.co.uk/trailwalk/tra ... &subcat=32) never caught, which resulted in the climber decking. The belayer had caught the climber and I earlier that day from the exact same spot as well as many times on many routes and he is a pretty experienced climber himself (3 years outdoor climbing). Obviously I'm refraining from mentioning names because I don't think things need to escalate any more and I think in reality there's no reason for this post to continue. The point is that this can happen to anyone. We use equipment and participate in a sport that no matter how well things are tested and people perform there is always room for error. So the moral of the story is check your gear before you climb, belay and climb safely, and understand that anything can happen. Again, this post really doesn't need to go any further, there are plenty of other topics to create drama about but this involves a situation that could've been a lot worse and really wasn't the fault of the climber or belayer. On that note I'm going to hopefully let this post rest in peace, goodnight.

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by clif » Tue May 29, 2012 12:12 am

yeah, since i've decked and it was mostly my fault i'll throw my weight behind the need and use for understanding exactly what happened.

thanks for posting. i clicked the link and read:
"Cons: None"

engineering/device failure or user failure would seem to be the two choice explanations, you are saying there is a third?
training is for people who care, i have a job.

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by caribe » Tue May 29, 2012 12:18 am

jkpugel wrote:However, the belay device (It's called a Sum, good design, obviously not fool proof.


-Wow, did the belayer destroy their brake from the friction? Is he/she alright?

- Was the device defective? Are your saying that if the device had been checked prior to climbing another method of belaying would have been chosen because this sketchy device would have been decommissioned? What part in the device failed?

This is an opportunity to educate other Sum users. I am interested because I might have a Sum user belay me sometime.

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by caribe » Tue May 29, 2012 12:29 am

jkpugel wrote: However, the belay device (It's called a Sum, good design, obviously not fool proof. A little info here, http://www.bluedome.co.uk/trailwalk/tra ... &subcat=32) never caught, which resulted in the climber decking.
I read the write up. It doesn't state that the device will fail 1 out of a million times. How is the review pertinent to the accident?

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by caribe » Tue May 29, 2012 12:35 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jlUlVyt6h0
Sorry but that thing is a death device. Get rid of it.
I am not going to let anyone belay me with this, ever....

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by jkpugel » Tue May 29, 2012 1:48 am

I just wrote a post about that video and that being a possibility for the incident but the good ole internet logged me out before I could post it...oh well. Anyway, I haven't examined the device for a root cause so I'm not sure if the failure mode seen in the video was what caused the decking but I'd like to look at the Sum to figure it out. The belayer tested it after the incident and said that the Sum used, which was the climber's did not lock when the brake hand was applied correctly whereas his Sum locked when any significant force was applied. That leads me to believe something else is going on with the camming device. To answer your questions the belayer is fine except for the guilt he feels about not being able to stop one of his best friends from decking. He was wearing gloves so his hand was not burned during the fall. I posted the review to give people an idea of what the device is since most people have never heard of a Sum let alone used one so I was just trying to give readers a point of reference. I think there definitely needs to be more investigation into the cause of the fall since that is one way to decrease accidents and I think whatever is gathered from that needs to be relayed to the manufacturer. I meant to say this earlier but I liked your post Art on how we choose things as a climbing community. Last week I wouldn't hesitate to tell people I thought the Sum was the best device to use but the events of the past week have definitely changed that. Time is the best way to weed out the things that aren't the safest or most reliable so for now I'll be sticking with my trusty Gri Gri and who knows, maybe one day we'll all be using Figure 8's, though I doubt it...

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by cliftongifford » Tue May 29, 2012 7:52 am

If the belayer had a brake hand on the rope he wouldn't have fallen, end of story. Brake mode with the sum is up, not down, just like a munter hitch. My old sum wore out and quit working, but it still caught a fall just fine (because I had my brake hand on the rope). I also heard the same thing happened a couple weeks before this incident resulting in someone falling 30ft on the same device... I'd say that's about time to try to figure out what went wrong, not just keep using the damn thing.

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