Decking at the Lode...

Gaston? High Step? Drop Knee? Talk in here.
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dustonian
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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by dustonian » Thu May 31, 2012 7:41 pm

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by steep4me » Thu May 31, 2012 9:24 pm

Man, these things really freak me out. My list of partners is narrowing each season. No SUMs and no. Cinches. Every single incident involving a gri gri or ATC had to do with pilot error. If there is ANY chance that a competent belayer could have their hand on the brake and deck me anyway....I'm not willing to take that risk. :shock:
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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by Meadows » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:50 am

The jury is still out folks ... it could've been pilot error.

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by Andrew » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:01 am

I think the point that people are trying to make is that the SUM is a device that... because of its design provides many opportunities for it to not work (pilot error) and eventually stops working over time.
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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by Meadows » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:21 am

I can relate to that and awhile ago, I remember the exact words being spoken from ATC users about the grigri. I even switched back to the ATC after witnessing an incident on Mercy in '06 in which I was told that the cam on the grigri failed to engage.

But because I love the SUM and have caught many of falls with it (with I feel better friction than the gri), I want to understand the situation.

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by SCIN » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:39 pm

I want to understand also.
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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by Spikeddem » Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:44 pm

Meadows wrote:I can relate to that and awhile ago, I remember the exact words being spoken from ATC users about the grigri. I even switched back to the ATC after witnessing an incident on Mercy in '06 in which I was told that the cam on the grigri failed to engage.

But because I love the SUM and have caught many of falls with it (with I feel better friction than the gri), I want to understand the situation.
Seems to me that the point over the last bit of comments has been that a SUM does not provide an "ATC mode" option in the case of a cam failure, whereas a gri-gri will.

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by ReachHigh » Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:46 pm

Dido, I have SUM and prefer the GriGri, but till now I saw nothing wrong with it.
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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by Wolf » Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:28 pm

So Clifton says the proper braking position for the SUM is up, as with the Munter Hitch. The SUM instructions that J-Ru posted say to brake down. Which is it? Are the instructions old and outdated, or do the makers of the SUM not know how to use it?
http://contributor.yahoo.com/user/496691/daniel_beck.html

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by chooky » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:45 am

Wolf wrote:So Clifton says the proper braking position for the SUM is up, as with the Munter Hitch. The SUM instructions that J-Ru posted say to brake down. Which is it? Are the instructions old and outdated, or do the makers of the SUM not know how to use it?
Up really does not make sense. Compared to down, it creates fewer bends in the rope and opportunities for friction. I would hazard that Clifton meant that the amount of friction provided if the SUM's cam is taped down is similar to that provided by a munter hitch.

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by geckodru » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:28 pm

I have a lot of experience with the Faders Sum. When Faders was testing the Sum, I was lucky enough to be invited into the preproduction test group.

I'd like to point out a few things about the device.

First off, the breaking direction is down not up! Pulling the rope up produces a wide bottom U on the rope. Because the bottom is so wide there is very little friction/leverage produced by the device. Pulling the rope down produces a backwards N shape in the rope. This will arrest a climber whether the cam engages or is held open.

Let's talk about the mechanics of lowering with the device. With your break on (remember hand in down position), you can disengage the cam. Rope will still not pass through the device because of your break. In order to allow rope to pass through the device, you will have to push the device perpendicular to your body (while retaining your break!).

When pushed down, the snape of the rope changes from a backwards N to a lightning bolt shape \/\ then into a L, shape. If you push the device below your waist it forms a ! shape straight pass. Note, each of these shapes of the rope have less friction/leverage than the last.

Mechanically, the Sum functions exactly like an ATC when it is not held below the belay loop, it forms a backwards N or S bend in the rope. If you ever grip the device below your belay loop, you are holding the cam open.

As with all camming belay devices, you need a way to safely feed out slack. For the Sum, you can do this as fast and safely as you can with an 8.
Step 1. Keep your break hand on at all times!
Step 2. Do not hold open the cam (i.e., keep the device perpendicular to your body)
Step 3. Pull slack toward your chest.

If you need to pull a lot of slack out quickly, you may:
Option 1. Lightly grip the Sum between the pinky and palm of your break hand.
Option 2. If you have small hands, you may also use your ring finger.

However, if you use either of these options do not skip Steps 1, 2 or 3. If the climber falls while your pulling slack, the device will be pulled upward, your break will be on the rope, the backward N shape will form in the rope and you will catch the climber.

The Sum provides the speedy rope delivery of an 8 with much easier breaking.
steep4me wrote:Man, these things really freak me out. My list of partners is narrowing each season. No SUMs and no. Cinches. Every single incident involving a gri gri or ATC had to do with pilot error. If there is ANY chance that a competent belayer could have their hand on the brake and deck me anyway....I'm not willing to take that risk. :shock:
Next time I see you at Stone Summit, I'll personally demonstrate to you the safety of the Sum belay device. Rachel & I are both well aware of safety issues involved in climbing equipment and usage. Neither of us will allow anyone to belay us that we've not tested first.

Thanks everyone.

P.S. - a fun aside —> http://vimeo.com/4148256
Last edited by geckodru on Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by dustonian » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:35 pm

wow that is one megabumbly video.

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by geckodru » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:40 pm

Two edits for typos and grammar mishaps. Thanks all.

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by caribe » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:03 pm

geckodru wrote: Thanks all.
Can you explaining why the soloist in this video thinks he needs to trail the other end of the rope?

One end has to be fixed and the device has to self feed or manual feed as he climbs. Why bring up the other end?

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by caribe » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:12 pm

geckodru wrote:Option 1. Lightly grip the Sum between the pinky and palm of your break hand.
Gripping the Sum and holding the Sum down appears to be the problem. Light grip might become death grip for the 0.75 sec that it takes to deck someone.
-If this grip also controls the directionality of the device and if the autoblock depends on device directionality, does not this grip also possibly lead to a crippled device?

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