Decking at the Lode...

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Koebs
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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by Koebs » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:29 pm

Meadows wrote:Many people run their biner through the top and bottom loop where the belay loop attaches or use the belay loop and one of the attaching loops. You cannot do this with the SUM because orientation of the device is essential for it to cam properly.
Along with the simple concept of not letting go of the brake hand. It's also not kosher to triload a biner. Which is something I've seen many climbers do. If you don't know what triloading is. Just stick to using the belay loop. The intended use is in the name, imagine that. I, like many people miss the much less crowded Red River Gorge of 10 plus years ago. I also welcome anybody to enjoy the same sports I do and will adapt to the changing times. Take the time to learn the sport, not just the basics but actually the concepts of how things work and how they are designed. It's actually extremely interesting to look at how equipment has evolved over the years to enable climbers to push harder but remain relativity safe. Gear like the SLCD wasn't even invented till the seventies. As for the fallen climber who I actually know and belayed for his first lead climb. I wish him a fast and speedy recovery. I too am guilty of being careless at times but learned my lesson 40 feet off the ground along time ago when my belayer yelled up. I think the Gri Gri is loaded backwards! That's what I get for assuming the other person knows what they are doing? He too had been climbing for three years or more. So, it's not always about how long you've been doing it, but more about what you know.

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by clif » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:29 pm

Koebs wrote:
Meadows wrote:Many people run their biner through the top and bottom loop where the belay loop attaches or use the belay loop and one of the attaching loops. You cannot do this with the SUM because orientation of the device is essential for it to cam properly.
Along with the simple concept of not letting go of the brake hand. It's also not kosher to triload a biner. Which is something I've seen many climbers do. If you don't know what triloading is. Just stick to using the belay loop.
clif wrote:if there is some casual curve to the allowable pressure which disables the MOST CRITICAL aspect of the device that's seems retarded to me. HANDS OFF the side of the thing and just lock off the rope, end of story. yeah, making sure the 'z' axis rotation is free is really good and important, BUT, one should never get confused about grabbing the device to do so as this proper alignment should be (IF THE LOCKING BINER is the correct size) an automatic reflex of the rope loading.
Thanks for the post which brought a moment of reflection, and a point, which i want to highlight and failed to understand in my earlier post:

if the orientation, not just up and down pivot action but also lateral and oblique rotational aspects effect the operation of the camming device (in addition to the engineered 'squeezing')-
then there is a somewhat 'hidden" potential outcome as the device will not be pulled into the correct operational orientation if the rope loading effect isn't enough to pull the device upward to create the 'backwards N, or Z or QWERty'
training is for people who care, i have a job.

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by Clevis Hitch » Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:48 pm

This is getting gay...
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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by LK Day » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:30 pm

Please forgive my ignorance on this subject, but I have a very basic question, having retired from climbing before mechanically complex body breaking devices came into fashion. What was wrong with simple belay devices like the ATC and why did people quit using them? Is paying out slack with an ATC such an arduous task that it makes sport climbing all but impossible? Just wondering.

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by caribe » Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:01 pm

LK Day wrote:Just wondering.
An ATC that autoblocks is the best of both worlds. The autoblock feature interests people in other devices; I don't think there has ever been a problem paying out slack with basket-type devices.

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by Saxman » Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:35 pm

Shit Larry, I can't spray about my previous send and drink my latte while belaying without an assisted braking device.
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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by EricDorsey » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:16 am

LK Day wrote:Please forgive my ignorance on this subject, but I have a very basic question, having retired from climbing before mechanically complex body breaking devices came into fashion. What was wrong with simple belay devices like the ATC and why did people quit using them? Is paying out slack with an ATC such an arduous task that it makes sport climbing all but impossible? Just wondering.
Personally I like being belayed with a device like a grigri because it gives me a little extra peace of mind my belayer wont drop me... Of course ANY belay device used incorrectly is going to be unsafe so I make sure my belayer knows how to use it. But who knows stuff can happen(rock fall, bee sting, hot girl etc) that would make a belayer lose their grip and an assisted locking device like a grigri just makes me feel more comfortable than an ATC. Personal preference though I guess...

I also like belaying more with a grigri because if the climber is going to take and hang out at a bolt its a lot easier for me to hold them with a grigri than an ATC. Obviously I can still hold a climber with an ATC but a grigri is just easier. Not to mention its easier to turn up the volume on my Ipod or adjust my hammock if I have two free hands.

While were on the topic of mechanically complex devices what was wrong with all passive pro and a swami belt??? Are those fancy new cams and padded harnesses REALLY needed? And ropes are made out of nylon these days!?

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Post by LK Day » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:51 am

Wow, as clear an advance as nylon ropes, harnesses and cams! I guess it really is next to impossible to climb without them. But seriously, it's about convenience and the feeling that you're less likely to be dropped by a distracted belayer. I get it. The distracted belayer bit is a little sad though, isn't it.

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by Josephine » Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:11 am

I prefer to be belayed with a gri-gri when I'm working a route. When being belayed with an ATC, if I'm up high and say "take" often times the belayer just locks me off and I go down several feet. (I realize this is bad belay technique, but for people that only belay with ATC this is fairly standard practice). The problem with going down several feet is I usually try to go in-direct to the bolt - I am no longer at the bolt and must reclimb whatever hard section I just went through. I had one belayer and we repeated this about 5 or 6 times before I gave up and decided if she must want to hold me up there rather than have me go in direct.

I've never worried about a distracted belayer. I guess I just have great partners :-D

I also prefer a gri-gri when belaying new climbers on TR. Often times brand new climbers or kids just want to make it to the top. I can put extra tension on the rope and help them up a bit.
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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by LK Day » Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:42 am

And there's the heart of the matter "GRIGRI - the hangdogger's friend". Thanks, Josephine.

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by JR » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:05 am

You've been dying for that dinger, Day!!!!!!!

I would like to defend the hangdoggers though, especially Josephine. She is an awesome hangdog! Hangdoggers still climb more pitches in day than Traddies.

Side note: This might just be lazy too, but you can belay quite nicely off an anchor(multi-pitch) with a GriGri. I have a feeling you already know this shit but where playing coy to make fun of the clunky locky belay devices.

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by LK Day » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:03 pm

Oh shit, busted - and in record time! Time to 'fess up. I know full well what grigris and similar devices are about, and their advantages when "working" a route. But man, you've got to admit the old school term "hangdogging" is so much more colorful and the imagery so much better than "working". Innovative gear and tactics are all part of pushing standards higher and higher, there's no way the average climber of today would be putting up such big numbers without clunky belay devices and lots of "hangdogging". It's all part of the evolution, (or devolution) of climbing. :) I've got no problem with it, really. But lugging a grigri along on a multipitch climb, now that's blasphemy.

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by toad857 » Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:14 pm

LK Day wrote:But lugging a grigri along on a multipitch climb, now that's blasphemy.
Yeah. Just like using a can opener on my tuna in lieu of bashing it with a rock and sucking out the juices the ol' fashioned way.

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Re: Decking at the Lode...

Post by LK Day » Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:31 pm

LK Day wrote: But lugging a grigri along on a multipitch climb, now that's blasphemy.
And it's pussyfied.

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Re:

Post by EricDorsey » Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:33 pm

LK Day wrote:Wow, as clear an advance as nylon ropes, harnesses and cams! I guess it really is next to impossible to climb without them. But seriously, it's about convenience and the feeling that you're less likely to be dropped by a distracted belayer. I get it. The distracted belayer bit is a little sad though, isn't it.
No its not only about convience and distracted belayers, that is not what I said... Unless you count getting knocked unconcious by a rock a distraction?? Or my buddy who is allergic to bees going into anaphylactic shock also a distraction? I know pretty unlikely but it could happen. Really the main reason for me is the added safety, if used properly, and I just find them easier to belay with than an ATC. Again personal preference.

Either way seems as if you are set in your ways and dont want to listen to the reasons people like them so I wont waste my breath. I would think there must be some benifit seeing as how they are about 4 times as expensive as ATC's yet almost everyone has one... Must be because we are all lazy climbers :D
Last edited by EricDorsey on Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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