belaying through both parts of your harness

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belaying through both parts of your harness

Postby steep4me » Sat Dec 05, 2015 12:50 pm

I am aware that about ten years ago Petzl came out with new recommendations for using the grigri safely and that now they state that it is safest to belay using the belay loop rather than putting the biner through both parts of your harness to avoid cross loading and snapping the biner in half. Of course, many of had been belaying for many years with the biner through both parts of our harness prior to the new guidelines coming out.

If you change to belaying using the belay loop, it alters the orientation of the grigri from horizontal to vertical and the break position from off to the side to down in front.

I have tried several times to get used to belaying using the belay loop, but it feels totally awkward. My concern is that I feel really confident in my belaying the way I have always done it because I have 20+ yrs of doing it the exact same way over and over. I have not had any issues with the biner cross loading. My concern is that if I try to force myself to do the new system that it will not be as safe due to it being awkward and not automatic in terms of knowing exactly where the grigri and rope are in space at all times without looking at it.

Who has changed their system to the belay loop and who has stayed with putting the biner through both parts of the harness? What is more dangerous?--possibility of cross loading the biner or trying to belay in a new awkward way?

How common is it for accidents to occur due to crossloading the biner?

I have definitely seen a lot of accidents due to people changing belay techniques or getting a new belay device.

The owner of my gym asked me to change the way I am doing it because Petzl states this is the recommended way. He feels it puts him in a bad legal position if he lets people belay off of their harness rather than the belay loop.

This is a serious question--no trolls please.
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Re: belaying through both parts of your harness

Postby Spikeddem » Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:03 pm

steep4me wrote:The owner of my gym asked me to change the way I am doing it because Petzl states this is the recommended way. He feels it puts him in a bad legal position if he lets people belay off of their harness rather than the belay loop.


Sounds like you have your answer, assuming you want to keep climbing at this gym.
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Re: belaying through both parts of your harness

Postby Rx2Climb » Sat Dec 05, 2015 6:52 pm

"Belay Loop". I wonder what that might be used for?
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Re: belaying through both parts of your harness

Postby Toy » Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:38 pm

I still put my locker through both tie in points instead of the belay loop, but I use a magnetron w/a keeper. This eliminates the cross-loading potential.
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Re: belaying through both parts of your harness

Postby steep4me » Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:45 pm

Nice
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Re: belaying through both parts of your harness

Postby DrRockso » Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:37 pm

I still put my locker through both tie in points instead of the belay loop, but I use a magnetron w/a keeper. This eliminates the cross-loading potential.


It's not really cross loading that is the concern, it's the fact that you are tri-axially loading your carabiner.
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Re: belaying through both parts of your harness

Postby Toy » Sun Dec 06, 2015 5:46 pm

Both tie ins collapse together when upward force is applied to the gri-gri. I've never had my device stick on the Biner or load sideways since I've been doing this. The force loads longitudinally every time.
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Re: belaying through both parts of your harness

Postby steep4me » Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:25 pm

Thanks! I got a new locking biner with the keeper thing to prevent the gri gri from moving up and down the spine--even though I have never had an issue with cross loading. Spoke with a couple of climber/engineers who said that there is no risk using the tie in points rather than the belay loops, as the entire system has lots of give and the biner is extremely strong. A lot of people use the belay loop but still belay palm side up and with the gri gri horizontal, as they end up twisting the loop. My method doesn't involve that. Tried belaying today with palm down, off the belay loop etc.. It was ok for paying out slack and lowering, but totally sucked for taking in slack. It also made my wrist hurt, while my original way is more like the mechanics when you use an atc.
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Re: belaying through both parts of your harness

Postby milspecmark » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:46 am

I can not seem to find the video, but the other main risk to putting the caribiner in the harness loops is that durring a fall, the gri gri lever gets caught in the loose belay loop and gets pulled open to the max as the gri gri gets pulled out tight. THis will cause climber to deck. There is a video (I think from petzl) demonstrating this malfunction. Hope that makes sense
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Re: belaying through both parts of your harness

Postby Toy » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:03 pm

This seems ridiculously improbable, but I'd be curious to see the video if you find it.
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Re: belaying through both parts of your harness

Postby milspecmark » Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:08 pm

not impossible, I can recreate the event with my hands. the lever is facing foward and it just has to catch on the loop as it jerks foward. I guess I just dont see any reason why you would want to risk it.
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Re: belaying through both parts of your harness

Postby steep4me » Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:17 pm

When I belay through the tie in points, the laver is nowhere near the belay loop. The Grigri is horizontal and the lever is facing away from the belay loop.
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Re: belaying through both parts of your harness

Postby milspecmark » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:12 pm

To each there own, not trying to knock anyone, just saying that I have been able to re create that happening. I guess I am just confused on the benefit of going against the way the manufacture has recommended. Again, I dont really have any issues taking in slack, giving rope, or lowering when it is on my belay loop. The scenerio where the belay loop gets caught on the lowering lever occurs when the gri gri is loose and hanging down, like when you have the rope slightly loose and your arms are down just holding onto the brake side loosly. it can just line up right and if a suddon fall occurs, boom, they are on the ground.
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Re: belaying through both parts of your harness

Postby steep4me » Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:18 pm

I think the reason mine doesn't do that is because when you are through the tie in points, the Grigri doesn't hang down at all. Plus, the the DMM biner I have to prevent cross loading,the gri gri stays in the same position at all times. I find belaying off the belay loop slow and awkward with a lot more of the Grigri flopping around. Like you say, to each his own. I think people should use the method that results in their best belaying
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Re: belaying through both parts of your harness

Postby dustonian » Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:21 pm

Again, tri-axial loading is the main concern, not so much cross-loading (although that happens too).
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