Wrench bolt size

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docpolecat
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Wrench bolt size

Post by docpolecat » Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:53 pm

What size heads are the bolts in the red? I have a tendency to find loose bolts and instead of yelling at someone I want to tighten the problem and I don't want to lug a metric and English wrench set from Michigan just to figure it out.

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Post by squeezindlemmon » Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:01 pm

use a 9/16" wrench
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Post by J-Rock » Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:33 pm

Rick was passing out wrenches to people as they went down into Muir Valley on a few different weekends. Surprisingly, he commented that they all returned saying that nothing needed tightening.
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Post by pawilkes » Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:41 pm

i've been meaning to get one to add to my sport rack
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Post by Meadows » Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:18 am

Sunshine has been there a few times and probably tightened everything already. LOL As he recommended, a 9/16 offset wrench with a hole on the other end so you can carry it using a 'biner.

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Post by t bone » Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:20 am

Meadows, Sunshine did not tighten everything at Muir. I have been retighting bolts all over Muir the last few months. Believe it or not Sunshine is not the only person that knows anything about bolting routes or maintaining them.

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Post by J-Rock » Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:16 am

t bone wrote:Meadows, Sunshine did not tighten everything at Muir. I have been retighting bolts all over Muir the last few months. Believe it or not Sunshine is not the only person that knows anything about bolting routes or maintaining them.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Ah, so true! The Muir Valley developers are certainly not incompetent.
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Post by weber » Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:03 am

I was able to get a fair deal on forged 10-inch long 9/16-inch box end wrenches. The other end is a 1/2-inch box, through which a piece of perlin can be tied. A strong climber can apply about 35 foot-pounds of torque with this wrench. Any responsible climber who climbs in Muir and wishes to have one need only see me at the Muir parking lot for a free wrench. I've already passed out about a couple dozen.

One point that should be made here is that a loose bolt does NOT necessarily mean that the developer of that particular route didn't torque it down adequately. This applies to ANY climb on ANY wall in the Red. This Corbin sandstone stuff that we bolt into is so soft that when a hanger is torqued under the load of a fall (or just hanging weight at the anchors), it can pulverize a thin layer of rock between the hanger and the wall as it pivots. The pulverized dust falls away and leaves a tiny gap between the hanger and the wall. Now the hanger can spin.

It should give some comfort to those of you encountering a loose hanger that, so long as the bolt head is in close to the hanger, a loose hanger will fail at about the same load as a tight hanger. Failure tests on hangers tightened with Dynabolt Golds to 50 foot-pounds of torque failed at the same general value (4000+ pounds) as did hangers that were first tightened, then loosened to ZERO torque (finger loose). To appreciate why this is true, envision a Chinese finger puzzle. The Dynabolt has an expansion cone that tightens inside a sleeve and secures the bolt to the rock, regardless of whether or not the hanger is loose or tight. The harder you pull, the tighter the grip on the rock.

Rick
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Post by weber » Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:22 am

Another point to ponder about spinners...

Several of us are interested in glue-in bolts and have been testing them. This is a very popular way of bolting in sandstone and other softer rock around the world.

But, one significant negative for a glue-in is the fact that, like the expansion bolt, the attached hanger bracket can be torqued loose under a large load. Now, what does one do with a spinner when the glue-in bolt cannot be re-tightened? Left spinning, over time the hanger bracket can wear away a stress riser on the bolt shank and weaken it.

We don't have an answer yet for this dilema.

At least expansion bolts can be re-tightened when they become loose.

Soon, I hope to test some hangers attached by Dynabolt Golds -- with and without a tough, weatherproof, penetrating urethane adhesive applied between the hanger and the rock. We will see if the urethane discourages the hanger bracket from being spun. The urethane also has the possibility of penetrating into and bonding with the sandstone directly next to the hanger, thereby giving it better structural integrity and resistance to pulverizing.

Rick
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Post by Christian » Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:30 am

I just get the sense that you guys are having way too much fun! Carry on.
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Post by lordjim_2001 » Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:39 am

weber: are you talking about these types of glue ins?
http://www.greatoutdoorsdepot.com/fixe- ... -bolt.html
http://www.greatoutdoorsdepot.com/ushba ... -bolt.html

I thought that the hangers were integrated in the bolts.
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Post by weber » Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:02 pm

lordjim_2001 wrote:weber: are you talking about these types of glue ins?
http://www.greatoutdoorsdepot.com/fixe- ... -bolt.html
http://www.greatoutdoorsdepot.com/ushba ... -bolt.html

I thought that the hangers were integrated in the bolts.
Those particular ones are integrated. Or, rather they are "eye-bolt-shaped." They are strong and very expensive. When these are heavily torqued, the entire bolt can fail. Although this is undoubtedly, a rare occurance, the bolt with its layer of glue can pop free of the hole. Unlike a loosened expansion bolt, this is a catastrophic failure. (By the way, it is not the adhesive that fails, but rather the sandstone that is immediately outside the sandstone that is impregnated with the adhesive.)

The glue-ins we are working with include this configuration: a 3/8-inch dia stainless steel threaded rod, glued about 5 inches deep in the rock. (This is the same size bolt as the one inside the 1/2-inch Dynabolt Gold.) We are trying epoxy and acrylic 2-part adhesives. A standard s.s. hanger bracket is attached to the protruding end of the threaded rod by an s.s. nut.

Like the Fixe and Ushba eye bolts, this threaded rod too can fail catastrophically. However, unlike the eye bolts, if the hanger is torqued loose while the threaded rod is still bound to the hole, the nut can be retightened.

Please note that I am NOT fond of glue-ins. And there are several other negatives not mentioned here. However, we owe it too ourselves to at least test the things against what we are currently using. If there is anyway to decrease the risk inherent with this (or any) climbing hardware, we will do it.

Rick
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Post by Meadows » Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:28 pm

[edited by Meadows]
Last edited by Meadows on Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Mazz » Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:05 pm

This idea just hit me. It may not be very useful or practical, but it might be something to test on a bolt or two.

It's my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that the epoxy of a glue-in bolt bonds into the "fabric" of the rock. Well then, how about putting a thin layer of epoxy on the rock face around the bolt hole in just a large enough diameter to account for where the hanger would sit? The rock underneath would be protected by the epoxy and wouldn't erode away under the hanger. It might take some work to get the consistancy right so the epoxy doesn't run and it would be time consuming, but it might just work.

Any takers? Or, did I just hit my head too hard the other day?
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Post by weber » Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:09 pm

Mazz wrote:This idea just hit me. It may not be very useful or practical, but it might be something to test on a bolt or two.

It's my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that the epoxy of a glue-in bolt bonds into the "fabric" of the rock. Well then, how about putting a thin layer of epoxy on the rock face around the bolt hole in just a large enough diameter to account for where the hanger would sit? The rock underneath would be protected by the epoxy and wouldn't erode away under the hanger. It might take some work to get the consistancy right so the epoxy doesn't run and it would be time consuming, but it might just work.

Any takers? Or, did I just hit my head too hard the other day?
Good idea.

See my previous postings in this thread:

"Soon, I hope to test some hangers attached by Dynabolt Golds -- with and without a tough, weatherproof, penetrating urethane adhesive applied between the hanger and the rock. We will see if the urethane discourages the hanger bracket from being spun. The urethane also has the possibility of penetrating into and bonding with the sandstone directly next to the hanger, thereby giving it better structural integrity and resistance to pulverizing."

The urethane is easier to use and apply than epoxy. Unlike epoxy, it also has some resiliancy and therefore is not a brittle as epoxy in cold temps.

Rick
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