Bad Hybrid at Muir Valley: hold bolted on?!

Gaston? High Step? Drop Knee? Talk in here.
mcrib
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Post by mcrib » Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:50 pm

It seems like people bang on holds to see if the can withstand being used by climbers. If I see rock that looks suspect I'll at least give it a little knock for my own peace of mind. But chipping a hold is something different. Espically in the Red where a chipped hold can lead to constant seeping. Knocking off loose stuff is done in the interest of safety chipping a new hold because you can't send a route is done in the interest of pride or vanity.
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Post by weber » Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:12 pm

mcrib wrote:It seems like people bang on holds to see if the can withstand being used by climbers. If I see rock that looks suspect I'll at least give it a little knock for my own peace of mind. But chipping a hold is something different. Espically in the Red where a chipped hold can lead to constant seeping. Knocking off loose stuff is done in the interest of safety chipping a new hold because you can't send a route is done in the interest of pride or vanity.
Good points, mcrib. However, in either case -- chipping or selective removal of loose stuff -- the rock is being permanently altered in an "unnatural" way. A few non climbers who have visited Muir have expressed their preference for having NO alterations done of any kind and climbers kept away from the walls. Of course, we believe compromises are necessary, just as they are in other climbing areas. Again, none of us are advocating chipping.

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Post by Ultra » Mon Sep 19, 2005 4:11 pm

wow. You guys are even more purist than you realize. The bolting out here is suspect at best. The rock is regularly chiseled,altered,comfortized what ever you want to call it.You have it so good and you don't even know it. Look at Mt Potesi or Mt Charleston. insane routes that are 5.13-5.15 and are altered. you cant imagine how good you have it arguing about "ethics" . Ethics is not even a correct term because to have an ethic you have to have at least two people who agree on the same thing! This is unheard of in climbing.
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Post by pigsteak » Mon Sep 19, 2005 6:05 pm

I'm with Rick. If you bolt, you will alter the rock. I can't tell you how much rock I have removed from routes to make them safe. Bolt ons were tried at Smith rocks years ago, and were "over ruled". Myself, I'd prefer to see a nice small edge chipped into the 5.6 to make the line consistent. Again, I haven't even seen this line, so I guess I should reserve comment. (My guess, chipping a small edge would take away less rock than the hole that was drilled for that bolted on hold.)
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Post by J-Rock » Mon Sep 19, 2005 6:18 pm

That route sucks with or without the hold.
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Post by vic » Mon Sep 19, 2005 6:31 pm

Wow... and I too have not even seen the route, however must comment about a comment made about my poor little country (sorry, just had to...)
The alteration of routes in France (and Europe) is very selective - there is chipping to make a route safer, and there is chipping / glueing to make something climbable.

The routes in questions are usually super hard 5.14's that only needed one modification (or two or three)... what ever, and don't feel so bad: the result is the same, and in the end, the controvercies are near identical. People still do it - but usually not to make something down to a 5.6 or so. There are many instances of taking a wall that's completely blank (such as a canal wall made of concrete) and placing plastic all over it... just so people can have fun. It's actually cool if you don't want to waste fuel to go somewhere far.

There are certain "clubs" which will climb building, statues... right in the center of Paris (and similar) - it's an art - I guess. :shock:

If you are egoing to put a bolt (any bolts) in the a region, then take a big breathe on alteration - we are talking about one hold, one route... and joke or no joke, perhaps it was done for boy/girl scouts, perhaps for someone 97 years old, perhaps someone 2 years old... who knows? But know what? That land is privately owned.

Sorry if I am jumping up and down a little here, but while many people being respectful, I find others a little out of line when I hear:
CUT the tree.
REMOVE that hold now.

Perhaps I am not being diplomatic here, but perhaps people making near-such comments should learn to be a little respectful and diplomatic... like perhaps contacting the owner and expressing YOUR opinion.

Disclaimer: I reead the comment made where everything was taken care of... but as a climber, I am a little concerned about climbers wanting to take matters in their owne hands...

The future may lie in private land ownership... why but WHY would we want to jeoperdize this in any given way with the owner?
! Enough with all that detestation ALREADY !
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Post by Bruisebrother » Mon Sep 19, 2005 7:11 pm

I think it should be up to Rizzo, it's his route!

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Post by ynot » Mon Sep 19, 2005 7:20 pm

Let the rat decide. At least he agrees with himself.
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Post by Rizzo » Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:00 pm

J-Rock wrote:That route sucks with or without the hold.
Oh yeah??!!! Well, you kin go suck a lemon! There ain't another hold on any route anywhere in the Red like that one. You kin pull down hard on it, or rotate it and undercling or sidepull it.

I thought you'd take a hint about messin' with me when I dropped that snake on you a couple weeks ago. Guess I hafta ratchet up the harrassment. Be afraid... be VERY afraid.

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........

Post by Spoonman » Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:09 pm

Now I really feel bad!

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Post by J-Rock » Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:32 am

Uh oh! :shock: Next time I am over there that hold is coming down! Ha ha ha... :twisted: By the way, I still have a few more flavors of rat stew to try. The garlic was tasty and so was the barbecued wood rat. Now I'm thinking about maybe having sweet and sour wood rat. :D
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Post by Lateralus » Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:04 am

Meh, big deal. A 5.6 that would have been done a lot now will likely never be done with the 5.10-11 move. There is so much good rock in the gorge that I don't think a widespread hold bolt on frenzy will start because someone did this on 1 route. I really don't have a problem doing this if the route is 5.whatever for the entire route except for one section which is way way harder.
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Post by Stewy911 » Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:32 am

dude the point is that there is bolted rock on rock. its absolutely absurd dude and yes this could possibly start a trend but you never know. the move can be done without it. there are a ton of good routes in muir that are one move wonders so i guess your saying that you should add a hold on them as well to keep the grade consistent. BULLHONKEY!!!
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Post by meetVA » Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:42 am

To a certain extent one could argue that the bolts shouldn't be there either. I mean, if you are meant to get a rest, then finish the climb, top out and rap down, don't hang.
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Post by mcrib » Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:12 am

I don't think this one hold should shake the foundations of sport climbing.
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