Glue-in Bolt Test Results at Muir

Gaston? High Step? Drop Knee? Talk in here.
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Alan Evil
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Post by Alan Evil » Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:12 pm

This thread makes me giddy!
[size=75]You are as bad as Alan, and even he hits the mark sometimes. -charlie

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Saxman
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Post by Saxman » Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:19 pm

Nothing like talk of forces and vectors to get the old juices flowing.
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jimtitt
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Post by jimtitt » Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:48 am

Hi There in America.
A friend put me onto this thread. I wrote the stuff about bolting in climbargolis and have some more to add when it is finished which will answer most of your questions. We have done plenty of testing here and in Greece and the answer is that glue-ins are the way to go, cheap and long lasting.
To remove them heat them up to about 140°C and pull with a wrecking bar. Cost- we make them ourselves from stainless bar, with glue they cost around 60 US cents each. Durability. The constuction glues are certified here for 20 yrs and tests in Germany show no deterioration after 15 yrs. We get around 38kN pull out, in sandstone the German Alpine Club use 150mm long bolts. Don´t use staples.
Nice to see your forums drift off into re-inventing the wheel like everyone elses, impact testing is pointless, the bolt must hold a force of ca 20kN however it is applied and why test with static rope or maybe you climb differently in the U.S.? For easy to understand info on the forces in a fall check out the info pages from Petzl or Beal.
Good climbing and safe bolting.
Jim

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Post by weber » Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:18 am

jimtitt wrote:Hi There in America.
A friend put me onto this thread. I wrote the stuff about bolting in climbargolis and have some more to add when it is finished which will answer most of your questions. We have done plenty of testing here and in Greece and the answer is that glue-ins are the way to go, cheap and long lasting.
To remove them heat them up to about 140°C and pull with a wrecking bar. Cost- we make them ourselves from stainless bar, with glue they cost around 60 US cents each. Durability. The constuction glues are certified here for 20 yrs and tests in Germany show no deterioration after 15 yrs. We get around 38kN pull out, in sandstone the German Alpine Club use 150mm long bolts. Don´t use staples.
Nice to see your forums drift off into re-inventing the wheel like everyone elses, impact testing is pointless, the bolt must hold a force of ca 20kN however it is applied and why test with static rope or maybe you climb differently in the U.S.? For easy to understand info on the forces in a fall check out the info pages from Petzl or Beal.
Good climbing and safe bolting.
Jim
Thank you very much Jim for your input. Can you answer these questions:
1. What is the alloy composition of your stainless steel?
2. What diameter of s.s. rod are you using?
3. Are you using an "eye" type bolt or threaded rod?
4. And, if you are using an eye-bolt, then I assume you weld the loop closed?

We tried glue-in threaded rods with a nut and hanger bracket here, but ended up with the same problem of the hanger brackets loosening after repeated falls on them. When jerked they sometimes tend to crush the sandstone surface behind them, causing the hanger to loosen. The FIXE eye-bolt seems to solve this problem. But, this is a very expensive piece of hardware. We have considered making our own glue-ins, but have not done so. We are very interested in how you make and install yours.
jimtitt wrote: impact testing is pointless, the bolt must hold a force of ca 20kN however it is applied ...
Jim
Agreed that the radial and axial forces can be applied effectively in a non-impact manner. Many of us have been curious to see just how much force a climber and the hanger bracket experiences during actual falls of various fall factors. That is why we are going to be doing the falling tests with a load cell.
jimtitt wrote:... maybe you climb differently in the U.S.?
Jim
:wink:

There are some in our climbing community who purposely take long falls at the end of each climb. Instead of clipping the top anchors, they just touch them and fall, putting an unnecessary stress on the last bolt below the top anchors. Often, a little extra rope is payed out to increase the length of the fall. These senseless acts of daring are referred to as "Victory Whippers" and "rope jumping." We have been unsuccessful in convincing these irresponsible climbers that they are putting unecessary stress on bolted hardware (which are mostly mechanical sleeve bolts here in this area.)

Thank you again, Jim for any information you can provide us.

Rick Weber
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Post by Wes » Fri Apr 28, 2006 8:13 am

Rick, please do not refer to me as "irresponsible." If the forces of falling on the last bolt are so bad for the bolts, then we should have been seeing bolts fail left and right.

Thanks.

Wes
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Post by Saxman » Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:27 am

To avoid repeating a whole thread why don't we put some money on it? Wes and Rick bet money on which force is greater, a short, more static fall on a first bolt and no soft catch or a long whipper with lots of rope stretch and a soft catch.
The loser pays their money to the RRGCC for the Southern Region.
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Post by Stewy911 » Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:33 am

Short Static
Last edited by Stewy911 on Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by lordjim_2001 » Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:52 am

Short fall with little rope out!
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Post by Toad » Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:10 am

measurbaters.
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Post by Sunshine » Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:29 am

Wes, you are just senseless and daring. I just love those personality traits! Do you drink?
So now you'd better stop and rebuild all your ruins,
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Post by captain static » Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:18 am

Stewy911 wrote:Short Static
You better not short rope me :evil:
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Post by Wes » Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:52 am

Sunshine wrote:Wes, you are just senseless and daring. I just love those personality traits! Do you drink?
I have been known to enjoy a beer or two on special days (mostly just the ones that end in "y"), how about you?
"There is no secret ingredient"

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Post by pigsteak » Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:54 am

take it to a room...geesh.
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.

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Saxman
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Post by Saxman » Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:20 pm

I love what Rick is doing and can't wait to see the data. To make things interesting, and no offense to Rick, I will bet $25 that the long whipper will have a lower peak force than the short fall. The money will of course go to the coaltion. As a fund raiser, more people should bet as well. Why not have some friendly fun, raise money, and enjoy some geeky science all at the same time? Anyone else want to put their money where their mouth is?
The theory of evolution is just as stupid as the theories of gravity and electromagnetism.

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Post by Yasmeen » Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:25 pm

Saxman wrote:Anyone else want to put their money where their mouth is?
What's this poor child supposed to do??
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