Mixed climbing wisdom

Post by **pigsteak** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:28 am

I thought FA's gave me confusion...even worse is this thing called "mixed" routes. What exactly is a mixed route?

If a mixed route is any route with permanent gear, then any "trad" route with bolted anchors is not actually a trad line, but a mixed route....right?

If a cam gets stuck on a trad line and later parties clip it, is that line now a mixed line?

If you sling a tree, does the line become a mixed line?

90% of the climbs at the Red can be protected naturally, so why do we even have bolts on these"sport" lines....if we are purists, shouldn't they all be mixed routes?

Why would anyone chop a bolt ("face up to the crack" had a bolt in the middle at one time) yet leave the others?

Seems to me the ethics of most people need cleansing. Quit clipping bolts when 40 pounds of removable gear would do just fine.

And if you bolt, never put up a "mixed" route...bolt the damn thing or leave it for the REAL climbers.

Thus sayeth the Lord.

Post by **haas** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:32 am

what about those mixed routes that still have an "R" rating? I mean what kind of sissy do you have to be to go, no that part is too hard and scary so I'll place a bolt, but this area is really easy so I don't care if you could hit a ledge if you fell through here. And the lord sayith place a second bolt you cheap ass, or don't place any at all.

Post by **p0bray01** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:36 am

I was told that part of Trad climbing was using Natural or "man made" pro. As a matter of fact I was told that if you can find natural pro thats decent it is probably 4 times more bomber than anything we could stick in the rock. So I would not consider slinging a tree as mixed. Yeah I climbed a few mixed lines when I was starting to climb trad...I figured if I blew some pro at least a or (the) bolt would stop me...kinda like a backup...? I do agree that if someone took the time and money to install DECENT bolts on a route that I think you should inform them that it could be protected by gear before chopping their work....Other than that I am for climbing....bolted or no...ya know when I am dead and gone those mountains will still be there and I am sure some of them being those temperamental mountains, will spit out those bolts if they dont like them!

Website · Post by **TradMike** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:45 am

"face up to the crack" had a bolt in the middle at one time

It was a retro bolt by someone other than the first asentionist without permission. It initially didn't have a bolt on the crack for a good reason.

Post by **pigsteak** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:59 am

so if a solid piece of gear can be placed, should the bolts be chopped?

I am guessing that Table of Colors would go on gear..should we chop it?

who decides bolts or gear?

and tradmike, why was chopping the bolt on face up to the crack a good idea? just because someone does a FA, does that mean they also have all eternal wisdom and foresight? that route is a beginner route, and should be 100% bolted. one piece of gear in the middle of a sport route is completely idiotic.

thus sayeth the lord.

Post by **Crankmas** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:28 am

I remember we placed mixed routes because we drilled by hand, if a nice horizontal was present it was nice to place a cam/etc and not expend the energy to drill, cordless drills removed that issue and mixed routes became rare compared to a typical sport line.

Post by **pigsteak** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:42 am

rapping and bolting...what a joke.

Post by **Yasmeen** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:46 am

Yes to all of your questions, Piggie. You forgot to take the style of the ascent into account, though. With the use of a handjam or a kneebar, a sport route suddenly becomes a trad route! Do you see the power we each hold to change the world?

Post by **anticlmber** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:06 am

pigsteak wrote: and tradmike, why was chopping the bolt on face up to the crack a good idea? just because someone does a FA, does that mean they also have all eternal wisdom and foresight? that route is a beginner route, and should be 100% bolted. one piece of gear in the middle of a sport route is completely idiotic.

thus sayeth the lord.

Pig it's not a sport route. had this discussion with Joe years back. It says mixed in the book, not sport. and hey we all climbed that route, as beginners, with/without pro in the crack, and we are all still alive. what's the problem? i am for a route that is put up in a way that seems fitting to the rock. don't bolt cracks and don't skimp on bolts if there is shite protection. So sayeth the devil.

Post by **SCIN** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:40 am

Mixed routes just make the people who feel that they have magic powers because they've figured out how to place cams feel good. In the movie, The Illusionist, Edward Norton's character, for one of his tricks, brings a wooden crack onto stage and places a cam in it. The audience is amazed at what special powers he has. That was in the 1800s though. It's not that magical anymore to place a springy jammy.

Post by **pigsteak** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:43 am

anti..I hear ya man....but I am talking more about modern lines. "don't bolt cracks" is a way over used statement to defend trad climbing. but as we both know, a ton of lines have face horizontals that take gear...what's up with the purist ideal of not bolting cracks, but other, just as easily protectable lines, see bolts? I honestly don't get it.

Post by **Crankmas** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:31 am

I think you've taken liberties with the term "crack", the don't bolt cracks I thought pertained to vertical hand/finger classics, but what do I know I voted.

Post by **pigsteak** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:07 am

right...a six foot crack in the middle of a face hardly deserves to be free from those evil bolts.

SCIN...can you jam your springy thingy in a crack for us?

Post by **Yasmeen** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:28 pm

Piggie, I'll bring a protractor with me next time we go climbing. We can determine at exactly how many degrees away from vertical does it become okay to place a bolt next to a crack in the rock.

Post by **rhunt** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:31 pm

piggy...all the "trad" lines at the Red (esp the ones with fixed anchors) are simply gear routes. There's not much "trad" about most routes at the Red.

Thus say me...so end of discussion.