Questions for "old schoolers"

Gaston? High Step? Drop Knee? Talk in here.
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Post by Horatio Felacio » Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:39 am

i would be kinda pissed if any route, with "stimulation" purposefully engineered into the route, was re-equipped to make it safe to the general consensus...even if the route was dangerous/contrived, bad falls/relying on one bolt/etc. it's what makes the route. a route doesn't have to be climbed by everyone...people can always toprope. on the other hand, an ordinary sport route with clips in stupid places should definitely be re-vamped - fire and brimstone comes to mind in this category.
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Post by alien2 » Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:04 am

Kampsight will never be the same. Creepshow will never be the same. I enjoyed those routes before the added bolts. Both were safe. I caught a big fall on Kampsight and they, novice, walked away just fine. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
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Post by anticlmber » Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:27 am

wes i guess you mean funk/manic at Funk Rock. i agree with the logical ending but the runout/cam placing and the moves at the top are great parts of that route.

rope drag a problem? don't use a rope.
top rope pain in the ass?? belay from above and both rap down. might teach some folks some things.

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Post by Wes » Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:36 pm

Matt, what are a couple routes that are "stimulating" and that were designed to be that way by the FA? I agree that not every route needs to be 100 percent safe, though I also think that a messed up bolt job should not qualify for exception, just because it has always been that way. And I also don't think a route should be scary just because it has old bolts. Replacing them might cause more traffic to the route(ie, mule), but I don't think that is always wrong.

I did Kampsight before Johnny moved the bolt, and thought it was better after, as you could climb straight up, rather then having to traverse over and make the death clip.

JR, nope, not at FRC, at WOD. Toxic Avenger is the route I was talking about. And at the same time, chemical imbalance is great as a mixed line, and I wouldn't ever want bolts added, though newer bolts wouldn't be a bad thing.

Thanks again for all the responses and feedback.
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Post by Josephine » Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:07 pm

Wes wrote:Matt, what are a couple routes that are "stimulating" and that were designed to be that way by the FA?
i was talking to one Old Schooler about some of his lines and he mentioned that a lot of the times they were sparsely bolted because bolts were expensive - not because he was trying to create "stimulation."

i'm sure each bolter is different in their reasons for the method and madness behind their placements. it sure is an interesting subject to consider.
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Post by Jeff » Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:20 pm

Wes wrote:Matt, what are a couple routes that are "stimulating" and that were designed to be that way by the FA? I agree that not every route needs to be 100 percent safe, though I also think that a messed up bolt job should not qualify for exception, just because it has always been that way. And I also don't think a route should be scary just because it has old bolts. Replacing them might cause more traffic to the route(ie, mule), but I don't think that is always wrong.

I did Kampsight before Johnny moved the bolt, and thought it was better after, as you could climb straight up, rather then having to traverse over and make the death clip.

JR, nope, not at FRC, at WOD. Toxic Avenger is the route I was talking about. And at the same time, chemical imbalance is great as a mixed line, and I wouldn't ever want bolts added, though newer bolts wouldn't be a bad thing.

Thanks again for all the responses and feedback.
Not sure if "No Place Like Home" was meant to be a bit spicey or not when it was bolted but it comes to mind as a route I would hate to see re-enginered. The spicy-ness makes it a great route. Having said that, it could stand to be rebolted. It's been 2 years at minimum since I've been on it, so maybe it has been re-bolted(?).

Toxic Avenger is great as is except for having to traverse left and gain the ledge for the anchors. IMO it could use a set of anchors.

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Post by the lurkist » Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:28 pm

WOD has some old bolts.
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Post by Jeff » Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:29 pm

What do you think about anchors on Toxic Avenger Hugh?

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Post by the lurkist » Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:04 pm

It is Neal's route. I will ask him his level of concern. As I recall they are 3/8th and old. Prob jingus.
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Post by Horatio Felacio » Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:16 pm

yeah, replacing old gear is fine...a route shouldn't be scary b\c of bad bolts. i can't really think of anything really dangerous, but runout routes that could have bolts easily added would be: tuna town, prime directive, primus noctum, and the bsbd. even those aren't what i would call stimulating. i guess i was just thinking of reading about some of the routes on the taipan wall, grampians that had cruxy climbing way above bolts.
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Post by the lurkist » Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:56 pm

Like you have ever been there. You are all talk.
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Post by Horatio Felacio » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:29 pm

piss off you long-legged faggot.
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Post by captain static » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:48 am

Since the Grampians have been mentioned, readers might be interested in parts of the Bolting Policy of the Victorian Climbing Club:

1.3 Fixed protection is inappropriate on climbs that can be protected by natural means. Fixed protection should be used as a last resort and only to enable a climb to be lead with minimum risk of serious injury. (i.e. fixed protection should not be placed just to reduce the size of a fall where the fall can be considered safe.).

1.4 Fixed protection should not be added or moved on a climb (i.e. retro-bolting) that has previously been done by naturally protected means without the express permission of the first ascentionist. ... If bolt placement needs to be changed and the first ascentionist cannot be contacted then "local best practice" should be used. ... Routes exist where the first ascentionist wanted to create a climb in the purest possible style. Adding or moving bolts may alter the nature of the climb and devalue the efforts of the first ascentionist.

1.7 Fixed protection should be placed to prevent the risk of ground fall, hitting dangerous obstacles or factor two falls. However consistent with point the risk of a dangerous fall on an existing climb may not necessarily justify retro-bolting the climb.

5.5. When a piton is intentionally removed it should be replaced with a fixed hanger or ringbolt.

5.6. If a piton is unintentionally removed then it should not be replaced if good natural protection is available. Where good natural protection is not available a fixed hanger or ringbolt should replace the piton. ...

5.8. Where possible old fixed protection should be extracted from the rock. If appropriate, old 10mm holes should be re-drilled to 12mm and the new bolt placed in the same position. Note: in soft rocks extracting fixed protection may leave unsightly damage in the form of a crater.

5.9. Where old fixed protection cannot be removed the old protection should be cut off flush with the rock or(preferably) sheared off below the rock surface and the hole then plugged. Old bolts must not be left protruding from the rock surface.

5.12. Where there has been a change in bolt type, number or placement then the route description should be re-written by the person placing the bolts and published as a modified route (same as for new route descriptions).
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Post by Lander » Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:36 pm

Hey Wes, this is Neal. When we put up Toxic Avenger the ethic of the time demanded that bolts only be placed where you couldn't place any natural gear. There's a good horizontal at the top of it. I fixed some hexes there once but they became someones booty. The reason for the runouts wasn't so much to add "spice" but because it was such a pain to place bolts (first we only had a hand drill then a crappy cordless that was only good for three or four holes on a charge). But this was all in the unenlightened (Before Porter) era when sport climbing hadn't come into it's own and nobody knew much about bolting and good gear. So as far as I care that rig should have got a shiny chain anchor a long time ago! And I'm sure the bolts are long overdo for a changin'.

The only problem I see is WOD is in the Clifty Wilderness (so is Funk Rock) and the Forest Service might not approve re-equipping there ("motorized equipment" and all that). It sounds like Captain Static is up on all the rules and regs. But I think theres lots of old climbs that could use sound new anchors especially. Hope that helps.
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